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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 15, 2017 17:36:16 GMT
Okay, your assessment differs from that of Coulson but you are certainly entitled to it. Um.... what? How is that pertinent to our discussion? Sorry, but this seems awfully "left field" to me. Please enlighten me. |
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Post by sigasahab on Jul 16, 2017 11:07:07 GMT
Okay, your assessment differs from that of Coulson but you are certainly entitled to it. Um.... what? How is that pertinent to our discussion? Sorry, but this seems awfully "left field" to me. Please enlighten me.
Which part of the discussion? It's pertinent to your dismissal of Real SHIELD as a terrorist organisation which wanted to organise a coup d'état and your comparison of them to Hydra. It doesn't have any particular bearing on what they got up to off-screen.
That the members of Real SHIELD actively fought Hydra on the Iliad and at the academy is clearly demonstrated on-screen. The logical conclusion (to me but obviously not to you) is that they fought Hydra at other sites as well. Regardless of that, Coulson accepted their good intentions and accepted the amalgamation of those two versions of SHIELD (an amalgamation poorly handled on-screen, I'll grant, but it sort of falls through the cracks together with Nick Fury and the Helicarrier and any other SHIELDs that Nick has hidden away).
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 16, 2017 14:40:24 GMT
Um.... what? How is that pertinent to our discussion? Sorry, but this seems awfully "left field" to me. Please enlighten me.
Which part of the discussion? It's pertinent to your dismissal of Real SHIELD as a terrorist organisation which wanted to organise a coup d'état and your comparison of them to Hydra. It doesn't have any particular bearing on what they got up to off-screen.
That the members of Real SHIELD actively fought Hydra on the Iliad and at the academy is clearly demonstrated on-screen. The logical conclusion (to me but obviously not to you) is that they fought Hydra at other sites as well. Regardless of that, Coulson accepted their good intentions and accepted the amalgamation of those two versions of SHIELD (an amalgamation poorly handled on-screen, I'll grant, but it sort of falls through the cracks together with Nick Fury and the Helicarrier and any other SHIELDs that Nick has hidden away).
I just found it an interesting way to try and put a cap on our discussion. Like I said, left field. As for R.S. personnel fighting Hydra on the ship and at the Academy, I don't dispute that; it was described in detail. They were "defending" themselves when Hydra came out of the shadows and attacked from within. They were fighting for their lives. Once regrouped on the Iliad, the show never provided even the slightest hint that they were performing SHIELD duties except for their pursuit of Coulson. You're assuming they were doing what Coulson was doing, i.e. fighting Hydra; I disagree. A better assumption would be to assume that if they were, then the two SHIELDs would have been aware of each other as they were fighting the same enemy. That wasn't the case. R.S. knew everything SHIELD was doing but SHIELD knew nothing of R.S. At that time, SHIELD, Coulson's REAL SHIELD, was a spy agency with unlimited funding and intel from Hill (who was involved with both Stark and Fury). The Avengers, at that time, were hunting and taking down Hydra bases and Hill was sharing intel with Coulson. If a group of people on an aircraft carrier were hunting Hydra as well, Coulson would have been made aware of it; or, The Avengers would have investigated and that info would have been provided to Coulson. R.S. was staying dark and gathering intel on Coulson, then attacked his base in blitzkrieg fashion. The Hydra comparison wasn't that R.S. was an evil org that wanted to take over the world, the comparison is that R.S. used the same tactics Hydra did, i.e. hide in the shadows, infiltrate and attack from within. R.S. had NO legitimacy (granted SHIELD had little or none, themselves but at least they had Avenger support from Hill and a somewhat working relationship with Talbot). R.S. acted completely independent of any and all agencies in the world to take down SHIELD. That's a terrorist act. As for the amalgamation: yes, I disagree with how Coulson handled it. I refer to May's comment in S1E005: "When someone breaks into my house, I usually don't invite them to stay." And to your "falls through the cracks" comment....... I think of it as a canyon.  |
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Post by sigasahab on Jul 16, 2017 15:02:38 GMT
DTM: "I just found it an interesting way to try and put a cap on our discussion"
Well, it was a Coulson rather than a Cap, but, yes, I was conscious of the absurdity of being offended by your disrespect to fictional characters.
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 16, 2017 15:12:22 GMT
DTM: "I just found it an interesting way to try and put a cap on our discussion" Well, it was a Coulson rather than a Cap, but, yes, I was conscious of the absurdity of being offended by your disrespect to fictional characters. Oh, sure..... attack my weak spot! You know I appreciate witty word-play and and puns. This was fun. |
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Post by ayanami on Jul 16, 2017 16:40:11 GMT
*cracks knuckles*  Since this whole debate started out with beren44 calling me out for my upset reactions regarding Bobbi in the shoutbox, I guess it‘s about high time that I jump in as well. First of all I want to make something clear: I do not hate Bobbi. Yes, I‘m upset – even angry – at her in regards to her actions during the whole FakeAssShield arc, but I don‘t hate the character as a whole. Even if I‘m particularly peeved about her treatment of Hunter, the fact that she took a bullet and almost died to save his life did earn her quite a few points in my book again. So, as far as I‘m concerned, she did make horrible decisions, but she clearly regretted them and actually paid for them on the show; so we‘re good. (Heck, I’m actually using the name ‘Mockingbirdy’ on another site, with a picture of Bobbi as my avatar, and I would hardly do so if I honestly disliked the character.) My only real grievance with her is during the current set of episodes, ' One Of Us', ' Love In The Time Of Hydra', and ' One Door Closes' in particular, the first of which was watching at the time I made my shout box comments. (This is definitely going to be one of my entries for @caseyrooks’s Shield Experience thread!) For some reason that I find myself unable to explain, this arc really does hit me harder than Turn, Turn, Turn or – yes – even the Red Wedding. Especially during re-watches. I don’t know if you’ve ever gotten around to reading Chained To A Sink, Trapped In A Maze, or Kept In The Dark, but these stories are the undeniable proof of the hours of therapeutic writing I needed to cope with what my favourite characters were doing to each other. This plotline was killing me! Now to the actual discussion here, about whether Bobbi was the most loyal character to SHIELD or not: Actually, I think most of it has already been said by others, and there is no reason to repeat all of it, but I am firmly siding with DoTheMath here. Bobbi wasn’t really loyal to SHIELD, she was loyal to her version of it, and if she had actually followed orders, a lot of terrible stuff could have been prevented. If the monolith had ended up on the bottom of the sea, Hive could have never returned to Earth, Jemma would have never been forced to spend her summer vacation on Maveth, leaving a desperate Fitz behind, and maybe it would have never even come to a full-out confrontation between SHIELD and the inhumans at Afterlife, because the one action that fully put them on Gonzales’ radar, was Raina and Gordon showing up on the Illyad, looking for that stupid stone. So in a way, all of that, all those deaths – even the fish oil incident – were caused by Bobbi disobeying Fury’s orders. To the second point, that Bobbi was loyal to SHIELD, because in the end she supported Coulson over Gonzalez: Well, imo that was too little too late. Sure, she did better than Mack (like that’s a challenge), but she was still the one who led the attack on the base and I will never forgive her for that one. FakeAssShield wouldn’t have gone through with the attack without Bobbi’s agreement, and without her on the front lines, they couldn’t even have gone through with it. The third point, that Bobbi left SHIELD to protect it, is obviously true, but it’s not really anything that elevates her over any of the other agents. They all put their lives on the line for the organisation at one point or another, plus, that whole episode was so sloppily written, that I have difficulties commending anyone for their actions in it. As to the quotes that beren44 picked out of the shoutbox: ayanami: Kinda pissed about how Andrew lies to May, pretending not to know that Coulson is director of shield now, or that she's back in the field... 10 hours ago- Well, if I remember correctly, we later find out that Coulson was seeing Andrew as his therapist during the first arc of season two, when he was still writing on the wall. Pretty sure that the fact that Coulson was director of SHIELD now must have come up at some point during that time. I’m also finding it hard to believe that they would have never talked about May and all. Not in detail, no, but you’d think that Coulson would have said something like “Yeah, she’s keeping an eye on me, she’s one of my most trusted agents.” Everything else just seems silly to me. ayanami: Bobbi is SUCH a bitch!! 10 hours ago- You’ve just recently seen ‘One Of Us’, right? On the one hand there’s Hunter, who is being held prisoner by his (former) best friend, after he confronted him about the conspiracy he and Bobbi had obviously going on; and on the other hand there’s Bobbi, telling Coulson that Hunter got upset about some relationship stuff, abandoned his duties and is drinking himself under the table in some bar. Are you seriously wondering why I called her a bitch?? ayanami: Okay, that's it! I'd rather watch the Red Wedding than see Bobbi, Mack and all of Hufflepuff betray and belittle Hunter, Coulson and the ACTUAL Shield, knowing they'll get away with it scott free. Much LESS emotionally scarring!- Pretty sure the rest of my post already answered this. |
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Post by Hari Seldon on Jul 16, 2017 18:18:57 GMT
If the monolith had ended up on the bottom of the sea, Hive could have never returned to Earth, Jemma would have never been forced to spend her summer vacation on Maveth, leaving a desperate Fitz behind, and maybe it would have never even come to a full-out confrontation between SHIELD and the inhumans at Afterlife, because the one action that fully put them on Gonzales’ radar, was Raina and Gordon showing up on the Illyad, looking for that stupid stone. This one isn't guaranteed. Malick still had the mini-liths and a path to Maveth. Once he recruited/joined Ward, Ward might easily have come up with the idea of kidnapping SHIELD's top scientist and sending her through to see what she might come up with. |
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Post by beren44 on Jul 17, 2017 12:27:42 GMT
My goodness this turned into a lively thread! I suppose its time for me to weigh back in as well. First, I'll get the easy stuff out of the way. polgara , don't you dare ever hush up! You know I was playing I'll always listen to what you have to say. I still disagree that Gonzales was intent on being director, though! ayanami , I wasn't attempting to 'call you out' on anything. I was just expressing surprise at the depth of your sudden apparent dislike of Bobbi. Don't think I had ever seen you express anything that strongly against her before. I will take a moment to semi-defend Andrew. Doctor/Patient confidentiality pretty much prevented him from revealing to May anything he may or may not have known. I prefer the term 'omission of facts', to 'lying'. We are not clear on exactly how much he really knew about May returning to the field, anyway. [edit: I still think comparing Bobbi's 'betrayal' to 'Red Wedding' is way over the top!]caseyrook AKA Mechelle , Jemma Simmons , and sigasahab , thanks for at least some partial support! In the interest of keeping posts a reasonable length, I will add a couple of others, to reply to casey and especially DoTheMath , rather than group it all together. And thanks to all for some interesting reading |
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Post by beren44 on Jul 17, 2017 12:40:41 GMT
Beren, my problem with the sailors aboars the good ship Illiad is that they sailed around doing jack while Coulson's SHIELD actively worked to rebuild itself, protect its Agents, and defeat HYDRA. To me, Team Gonzalez suffered from target fixation. If you don't know, target fixation is when a fighter pilot concentrates so hard on a target, they forget to mind their path, controls, and instruments and ends up crashing. It was never stated outright but I've always went with the assumption that Team Gonzalez never reached out to Coulson because, if Phil knew they existed and at what capacity, it'd be the equivalent of bluffing at a poker game. In their minds, nothing would stop him from dispensing with them for disagreeing with him and taking their stuff. They think he's Fury reincarnated after all. Also, just as Gonzalez agreed to let the team go rescue Lincoln and Mike and waste their own resources (RIP Bus), why not let them fight HYDRA in order to save their own resources and manpower? Having pondered these things an insane amount of time, I've wondered why Team Gonzalez didn't cash in on the intel they got on Coulson from Bobbi and Mack and take it to Talbot. They would have had a whole lot to gain by giving him the location of Coulson's base. Talbot would have probably even given them all pardons. And medals. I think team Illiad was pretty busy licking their wounds, and trying to get their feet back under them. After all, 'both' versions of Shield had been labeled as terrorist organizations, and Gonzales did not have the apparently unlimited resources from Fury's toolbox. I really don't think they would have received much of a warm welcome from Talbot, no matter what kind of intel they might have had. I'm not sure Talbot was even aware of them at that point, yet I would have to review and confirm that statement.. Coulson, on the other hand, had the means and methods to remain deep underground, thanks to Fury. All in all, if anyone suffered from 'target fixation', it was Phil and Phil alone, right up UNTIL Gonzales stormed the base, rightfully calling out Coulson for being obsessed with the alien writing/city. I'll expand on that in my reply to DoTheMath. |
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Post by beren44 on Jul 17, 2017 13:17:57 GMT
and now to the meat on the plate: DoTheMath , I sometimes wonder if your unwavering loyalty to Fury has clouded your judgement! I truly think that labeling Gonzales' SHIELD as a terrorist organization is way off base. And even mentioning them in the same sentence with Hydra is a terrible thing to do. I bet that is not what he was thinking when he laid on the floor with an axe wound in his leg. Or even when he let Bobbi change her 'sink the ship' mission parameter, issued by Fury. G. even admitted to Phil later on, that he was wrong about that. All the debate about what would have happened, had she sunk the ship (and the monolith), is just speculation as to what would or would not have transpired afterward. There is no way to know about how an alternate future might have played out. And back to my OP on the subject, I never claimed that Bobbi made the best decision every time. I just think she acted in what 'in her mind', as you put it, was in the best interest of SHIELD. And now, lets take a moment and analyze Coulson's SHIELD, from the time Hydra came out of the shadows, until the two SHIIELDs re-united. I don't see much real action against Hydra that was not based upon revenge against Ward/Garret, and other than that nearly everything they did was related to the obelisk and the alien city. 1) First, they retreated to Providence Base. Coulson found out from Ward that the inmates in the Fridge had been released, and under the guise of fighting the good fight against Hydra, he took a quinjet on a mission to round them up. All he really did was protect his old girlfriend. The rest went ignored. [quick edit: this is about the best example I can find of C. taking on Hydra in general, so I gave you credit and listed it first. Well, and chronology too.]
2) He tangled up with Garret, who was tangled up with Raina, who was tangled up with Cal, all of whom were tangled up with the obelisk (read, alien city). 3) Once Garret was defeated, he immediately began carving, and became fixated on that. Not any 'let's get Hydra type gung-ho', except in regards to when they were tied in, again, with the alien stuff. I.E., Bakshi and Whitehall both bit the dust at C-Shield's hands, but it was still more the result of their involvement with the obelisk, rather than the much broader organization of Hydra. 4) To frame G-Shield as behaving similar to Hydra by infiltrating and attacking from within, I have to point out Hunter's method of getting beat to within a few breaths of his life, to obtain access to Ward was no different. I DO realize this was not Coulson's explicit idea, Hunter came up with it on his own, yet everyone here who supports Coulson seems to think that Hunter was a loyal part of that team as well. And this from a man who said he wanted to get out and be 'three sheets to the wind', at one point. Hunter became loyal AFTER his experience on the ship, yes, but even he admitted while on the ship, that G. had some valid points. [one more edit: Explain to me how Coulson invading Cybertek's lab with 'the noise and the funk' was not also (in your words) a 'blitzkrieg' operation! And I do know that Hunter's move occurred later on, my point being Team Coulson used many similar tactics that you have termed 'terrorist']In summary, I don't see much at all that tells me C-Shield was too focused on the large picture of Hydra. It was all based on personal vendetta and alien obsession. |
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Post by ayanami on Jul 17, 2017 19:28:41 GMT
My goodness this turned into a lively thread! I suppose its time for me to weigh back in as well. First, I'll get the easy stuff out of the way. polgara , don't you dare ever hush up! You know I was playing I'll always listen to what you have to say. I still disagree that Gonzales was intent on being director, though! ayanami , I wasn't attempting to 'call you out' on anything. I was just expressing surprise at the depth of your sudden apparent dislike of Bobbi. Don't think I had ever seen you express anything that strongly against her before. I will take a moment to semi-defend Andrew. Doctor/Patient confidentiality pretty much prevented him from revealing to May anything he may or may not have known. I prefer the term 'omission of facts', to 'lying'. We are not clear on exactly how much he really knew about May returning to the field, anyway. [edit: I still think comparing Bobbi's 'betrayal' to 'Red Wedding' is way over the top!]caseyrook AKA Mechelle , Jemma Simmons , and sigasahab , thanks for at least some partial support! In the interest of keeping posts a reasonable length, I will add a couple of others, to reply to casey and especially DoTheMath , rather than group it all together. And thanks to all for some interesting reading I never said it was actually worse (Gosh, no!!), just that it hit me harder on an emotional level. After all, I know better than to let myself get emotionally attached to GoT characters. |
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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Jul 17, 2017 22:42:08 GMT
What?? he never even listened to Coulson's record collection. He didn't want to become the leader. And, well, when he DID take charge for a very brief time (or at least had his opinion upheld), it ended up in a fractured fairy tale, in short order. As in, lots of fractures, and a pile of black dust. González totally wanted to be the leader! They may have said that decisions would be made by a committee, but he was definitely first among equals. I said it in an earlier post, I think most of his problems with Coulson stem from the fact he wanted to be chosen as director. Yep, Coulson even pointed it out when he stood bound in his own office, "I don't see the other four here talking to me. Just you." We only saw Gonzalez outvoted once, when the others voted to bring May to their side. Every other time Gonzalez manipulated the votes to get the outcome he wanted. |
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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Jul 17, 2017 22:58:14 GMT
and now to the meat on the plate: DoTheMath , I sometimes wonder if your unwavering loyalty to Fury has clouded your judgement! I truly think that labeling Gonzales' SHIELD as a terrorist organization is way off base. And even mentioning them in the same sentence with Hydra is a terrible thing to do. I bet that is not what he was thinking when he laid on the floor with an axe wound in his leg. Or even when he let Bobbi change her 'sink the ship' mission parameter, issued by Fury. G. even admitted to Phil later on, that he was wrong about that. All the debate about what would have happened, had she sunk the ship (and the monolith), is just speculation as to what would or would not have transpired afterward. There is no way to know about how an alternate future might have played out. And back to my OP on the subject, I never claimed that Bobbi made the best decision every time. I just think she acted in what 'in her mind', as you put it, was in the best interest of SHIELD. And now, lets take a moment and analyze Coulson's SHIELD, from the time Hydra came out of the shadows, until the two SHIIELDs re-united. I don't see much real action against Hydra that was not based upon revenge against Ward/Garret, and other than that nearly everything they did was related to the obelisk and the alien city. 1) First, they retreated to Providence Base. Coulson found out from Ward that the inmates in the Fridge had been released, and under the guise of fighting the good fight against Hydra, he took a quinjet on a mission to round them up. All he really did was protect his old girlfriend. The rest went ignored. [quick edit: this is about the best example I can find of C. taking on Hydra in general, so I gave you credit and listed it first. Well, and chronology too.]
2) He tangled up with Garret, who was tangled up with Raina, who was tangled up with Cal, all of whom were tangled up with the obelisk (read, alien city). 3) Once Garret was defeated, he immediately began carving, and became fixated on that. Not any 'let's get Hydra type gung-ho', except in regards to when they were tied in, again, with the alien stuff. I.E., Bakshi and Whitehall both bit the dust at C-Shield's hands, but it was still more the result of their involvement with the obelisk, rather than the much broader organization of Hydra. 4) To frame G-Shield as behaving similar to Hydra by infiltrating and attacking from within, I have to point out Hunter's method of getting beat to within a few breaths of his life, to obtain access to Ward was no different. I DO realize this was not Coulson's explicit idea, Hunter came up with it on his own, yet everyone here who supports Coulson seems to think that Hunter was a loyal part of that team as well. And this from a man who said he wanted to get out and be 'three sheets to the wind', at one point. Hunter became loyal AFTER his experience on the ship, yes, but even he admitted while on the ship, that G. had some valid points. [one more edit: Explain to me how Coulson invading Cybertek's lab with 'the noise and the funk' was not also (in your words) a 'blitzkrieg' operation! And I do know that Hunter's move occurred later on, my point being Team Coulson used many similar tactics that you have termed 'terrorist']In summary, I don't see much at all that tells me C-Shield was too focused on the large picture of Hydra. It was all based on personal vendetta and alien obsession. If Coulson was target fixated on the writing and alien stuff why did he: A) Send Simmons and Bobbi undercover into HYDRA? We never saw any indication that his motive for that was to get more intel on anything alien related. He had no reason to believe HYDRA was interested in the alien stuff because he couldn't have known! B) Bother to send his agents out at all to do things like buying back SHIELD assets or kidnapping Talbot? C) Bother to spend resources and money on Theta Protocol? D) Tell Skye to put the alien writing search on the backburner when they had bigger things to deal with? It seems to me like a man really obsesed with one goal would put all of his resources and efforts into that goal. And then there's the fact that May would have ended it immediately if she thought he was obsessed completely with the writing and it was effecting their missions. Plus, Whitehall was just as interested in the alien stuff as Coulson was, if not more, and the team would have been screwed if they hadn't went to the city too. |
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 18, 2017 3:41:36 GMT
and now to the meat on the plate: DoTheMath , I sometimes wonder if *your unwavering loyalty to Fury* has clouded your judgement! I truly think that labeling Gonzales' SHIELD as a terrorist organization is way off base. And even mentioning them in the same sentence with Hydra is a terrible thing to do. I bet that is not what he was thinking when he laid on the floor with an axe wound in his leg. Or even when he let Bobbi change her 'sink the ship' mission parameter, issued by Fury. G. even admitted to Phil later on, that he was wrong about that. All the debate about what would have happened, had she sunk the ship (and the monolith), is just speculation as to what would or would not have transpired afterward. There is no way to know about how an alternate future might have played out. And back to my OP on the subject, I never claimed that Bobbi made the best decision every time. ** I just think she acted in what 'in her mind', as you put it, was in the best interest of SHIELD**.And now, lets take a moment and analyze Coulson's SHIELD, from the time Hydra came out of the shadows, until the two SHIIELDs re-united. I don't see much real action against Hydra that was not based upon revenge against Ward/Garret, and other than that nearly everything they did was related to the obelisk and the alien city. 1) First, they retreated to Providence Base. Coulson found out from Ward that the inmates in the Fridge had been released, and under the guise of fighting the good fight against Hydra, he took a quinjet on a mission to round them up. All he really did was protect his old girlfriend. The rest went ignored. [quick edit: this is about the best example I can find of C. taking on Hydra in general, so I gave you credit and listed it first. Well, and chronology too.]
2) He tangled up with Garret, who was tangled up with Raina, who was tangled up with Cal, all of whom were tangled up with the obelisk (read, alien city). 3) Once Garret was defeated, he immediately began carving, and became fixated on that. Not any 'let's get Hydra type gung-ho', except in regards to when they were tied in, again, with the alien stuff. I.E., Bakshi and Whitehall both bit the dust at C-Shield's hands, but it was still more the result of their involvement with the obelisk, rather than the much broader organization of Hydra. 4) To frame G-Shield as behaving similar to Hydra by infiltrating and attacking from within, I have to point out Hunter's method of getting beat to within a few breaths of his life, to obtain access to Ward was no different. I DO realize this was not Coulson's explicit idea, Hunter came up with it on his own, yet everyone here who supports Coulson seems to think that Hunter was a loyal part of that team as well. And this from a man who said he wanted to get out and be 'three sheets to the wind', at one point. Hunter became loyal AFTER his experience on the ship, yes, but even he admitted while on the ship, that G. had some valid points. [one more edit: Explain to me how Coulson invading Cybertek's lab with 'the noise and the funk' was not also (in your words) a 'blitzkrieg' operation! And I do know that Hunter's move occurred later on, my point being Team Coulson used many similar tactics that you have termed 'terrorist']In summary, I don't see much at all that tells me C-Shield was too focused on the large picture of Hydra. It was all based on personal vendetta and alien obsession. * I don't know where the hell you got that idea. I've never proclaimed any sort of loyalty to Fury. ** That's not what I said. I said she was loyal to her idea of what she thought SHIELD should be. And then helped lead an effort to conduct a coup d' etat. I never disputed they defended their ship. Actually my point was that the defense of their ship (and Calderon helping at the Academy) was the only Hydra fighting we saw them do. Meanwhile SHIELD was trying to protect/save the world. You're drinking Gonzales Gang Kool-Aide. And now, lets take a moment and analyze Coulson's SHIELD, from the time Hydra came out of the shadows, until the two SHIIELDs re-united. I don't see much real action against Hydra that was not based upon revenge against Ward/Garret, and other than that nearly everything they did was related to the obelisk and the alien city.Revenge on Ward and Garrett? Garrett was dead and Ward, who was in their custody, had escaped thanks to his stupid brother. Why wouldn't the Good Guys want to apprehend the country's "most wanted"? Who, by the way, had rejoined Hydra. Are you starting to see a pattern, here? Here's a hint: HYDRA (not alien obsession). So... NOW... let's take a moment to analyze what actually did happen in S2: We saw SHIELD on a mission to acquire intel on an item that was stored in The Fridge. On that mission was a Gonzales Gang spy (Hartley). Were they on a mission to get the intel because it satisfied Coulson's supposed alien obsession? No they were getting the stuff that was liberated from The Fridge to get it off the streets and keep it away from Hydra. Come to find out the intel was for an 084 (kind of important). Oh, wait...... not just an 084, but the first one ever. He didn't know about any alien connection all he knew from Fury's toolbox was it was the first one, it was extremely dangerous and he didn't want Hydra to have. So it wasn't about alien crap it was about keeping the world safe. He was also working against Hydra by having Simmons undercover to get intel (Aad don't even think about comparing Simmons undercover in Hydra to Hartley undercover in SHIELD as they are two different things. SHIELD working against a known enemy and the Gonzales Gang with the singular focus of taking down SHIELD). They also protected a military General from being kidnapped by an enhanced Hydra operative, Carl Creel, whom they later turned over to said General. So SHIELD had at least a bit of legitimacy by their relationship with Talbot while the Gonzales Gang had none. They were operating in the shadows with the singular focus of taking down SHIELD. You show me any other thing they did other than spy on and attack SHIELD. ANYTHING they did to fight the good fight. All we ever saw was them devoting all their resources to take down SHIELD. Sounds like a terrorist group to me. Sure they thought they were the good-guys, but Hitler thought he was the good-guy, too. The difference between the Gonzales Gang attack on SHIELD and the Cybertech take-down are so blatantly obvious, I'm surprised you need clarification. SHIELD took down Cybertech, Garrett's new HQ, because that's the place that actually developed the centipede serum, super soldiers and that Deathlock guy that they made punch off the head of a drug cartel leader in South America. Oh yeah, don't forget that rib-ectomy that happened either.......... In short - SHIELD, the good guys, did what SHIELD does - stopped evil. The Gonzales Gang tried to take down the guys that protect the world from evil. As for alien obsession - yeah he was carving but he wasn't obsessing over it. He was trying to deal with it while SHIELD did what SHIELD does. He didn't obsess until The Writing on the Wall, which was the episode in which he was cured. The mission to Puerto Rico was to stop Hydra from taking the Obelisk to the alien city not to appease his supposed obsession. Like I said, you're drinking the Gonzales Gang Kool-Aide. |
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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Jul 18, 2017 4:39:26 GMT
and now to the meat on the plate: DoTheMath , I sometimes wonder if *your unwavering loyalty to Fury* has clouded your judgement! I truly think that labeling Gonzales' SHIELD as a terrorist organization is way off base. And even mentioning them in the same sentence with Hydra is a terrible thing to do. I bet that is not what he was thinking when he laid on the floor with an axe wound in his leg. Or even when he let Bobbi change her 'sink the ship' mission parameter, issued by Fury. G. even admitted to Phil later on, that he was wrong about that. All the debate about what would have happened, had she sunk the ship (and the monolith), is just speculation as to what would or would not have transpired afterward. There is no way to know about how an alternate future might have played out. And back to my OP on the subject, I never claimed that Bobbi made the best decision every time. ** I just think she acted in what 'in her mind', as you put it, was in the best interest of SHIELD**.And now, lets take a moment and analyze Coulson's SHIELD, from the time Hydra came out of the shadows, until the two SHIIELDs re-united. I don't see much real action against Hydra that was not based upon revenge against Ward/Garret, and other than that nearly everything they did was related to the obelisk and the alien city. 1) First, they retreated to Providence Base. Coulson found out from Ward that the inmates in the Fridge had been released, and under the guise of fighting the good fight against Hydra, he took a quinjet on a mission to round them up. All he really did was protect his old girlfriend. The rest went ignored. [quick edit: this is about the best example I can find of C. taking on Hydra in general, so I gave you credit and listed it first. Well, and chronology too.]
2) He tangled up with Garret, who was tangled up with Raina, who was tangled up with Cal, all of whom were tangled up with the obelisk (read, alien city). 3) Once Garret was defeated, he immediately began carving, and became fixated on that. Not any 'let's get Hydra type gung-ho', except in regards to when they were tied in, again, with the alien stuff. I.E., Bakshi and Whitehall both bit the dust at C-Shield's hands, but it was still more the result of their involvement with the obelisk, rather than the much broader organization of Hydra. 4) To frame G-Shield as behaving similar to Hydra by infiltrating and attacking from within, I have to point out Hunter's method of getting beat to within a few breaths of his life, to obtain access to Ward was no different. I DO realize this was not Coulson's explicit idea, Hunter came up with it on his own, yet everyone here who supports Coulson seems to think that Hunter was a loyal part of that team as well. And this from a man who said he wanted to get out and be 'three sheets to the wind', at one point. Hunter became loyal AFTER his experience on the ship, yes, but even he admitted while on the ship, that G. had some valid points. [one more edit: Explain to me how Coulson invading Cybertek's lab with 'the noise and the funk' was not also (in your words) a 'blitzkrieg' operation! And I do know that Hunter's move occurred later on, my point being Team Coulson used many similar tactics that you have termed 'terrorist']In summary, I don't see much at all that tells me C-Shield was too focused on the large picture of Hydra. It was all based on personal vendetta and alien obsession. * I don't know where the hell you got that idea. I've never proclaimed any sort of loyalty to Fury. ** That's not what I said. I said she was loyal to her idea of what she thought SHIELD should be. And then helped lead an effort to conduct a coup d' etat. I never disputed they defended their ship. Actually my point was that the defense of their ship (and Calderon helping at the Academy) was the only Hydra fighting we saw them do. Meanwhile SHIELD was trying to protect/save the world. You're drinking Gonzales Gang Kool-Aide. And now, lets take a moment and analyze Coulson's SHIELD, from the time Hydra came out of the shadows, until the two SHIIELDs re-united. I don't see much real action against Hydra that was not based upon revenge against Ward/Garret, and other than that nearly everything they did was related to the obelisk and the alien city.Revenge on Ward and Garrett? Garrett was dead and Ward, who was in their custody, had escaped thanks to his stupid brother. Why wouldn't the Good Guys want to apprehend the country's "most wanted"? Who, by the way, had rejoined Hydra. Are you starting to see a pattern, here? Here's a hint: HYDRA (not alien obsession). So... NOW... let's take a moment to analyze what actually did happen in S2: We saw SHIELD on a mission to acquire intel on an item that was stored in The Fridge. On that mission was a Gonzales Gang spy (Hartley). Were they on a mission to get the intel because it satisfied Coulson's supposed alien obsession? No they were getting the stuff that was liberated from The Fridge to get it off the streets and keep it away from Hydra. Come to find out the intel was for an 084 (kind of important). Oh, wait...... not just an 084, but the first one ever. He didn't know about any alien connection all he knew from Fury's toolbox was it was the first one, it was extremely dangerous and he didn't want Hydra to have. So it wasn't about alien crap it was about keeping the world safe. He was also working against Hydra by having Simmons undercover to get intel (Aad don't even think about comparing Simmons undercover in Hydra to Hartley undercover in SHIELD as they are two different things. SHIELD working against a known enemy and the Gonzales Gang with the singular focus of taking down SHIELD). They also protected a military General from being kidnapped by an enhanced Hydra operative, Carl Creel, whom they later turned over to said General. So SHIELD had at least a bit of legitimacy by their relationship with Talbot while the Gonzales Gang had none. They were operating in the shadows with the singular focus of taking down SHIELD. You show me any other thing they did other than spy on and attack SHIELD. ANYTHING they did to fight the good fight. All we ever saw was them devoting all their resources to take down SHIELD. Sounds like a terrorist group to me. Sure they thought they were the good-guys, but Hitler thought he was the good-guy, too. The difference between the Gonzales Gang attack on SHIELD and the Cybertech take-down are so blatantly obvious, I'm surprised you need clarification. SHIELD took down Cybertech, Garrett's new HQ, because that's the place that actually developed the centipede serum, super soldiers and that Deathlock guy that they made punch off the head of a drug cartel leader in South America. Oh yeah, don't forget that rib-ectomy that happened either.......... In short - SHIELD, the good guys, did what SHIELD does - stopped evil. The Gonzales Gang tried to take down the guys that protect the world from evil. As for alien obsession - yeah he was carving but he wasn't obsessing over it. He was trying to deal with it while SHIELD did what SHIELD does. He didn't obsess until The Writing on the Wall, which was the episode in which he was cured. The mission to Puerto Rico was to stop Hydra from taking the Obelisk to the alien city not to appease his supposed obsession. Like I said, you're drinking the Gonzales Gang Kool-Aide. #TeamDoTheMath |
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Nov 24, 2024 23:10:42 GMT
Nov 24, 2024 23:10:42 GMT
I'll be spending next weekend with some family I like and trying to avoid any remotely controversial conversations with others that I spend the rest of the year avoiding 