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Post by beren44 on Jul 13, 2017 23:42:46 GMT
1. She defied Gonzales, and broke the computer chip that would have sunk the ship, along with knowing she would die, because she believed in SHIELD and its purpose. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENT
2. She at least entertained the idea that Gonzales had a strong argument, about why Coulson should be seriously investigated. Yet in the end she made the right decision to support Coulson. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENT3. She ultimately gave up her commission, to save the organization. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENTre: your comments in the shout box, why the hate, ayanami  or anyone else, for that matter! |
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Post by beren44 on Jul 14, 2017 0:20:03 GMT
1. She defied Gonzales, and broke the computer chip that would have sunk the ship, along with knowing she would die, because she believed in SHIELD and its purpose. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENT
2. She at least entertained the idea that Gonzales had a strong argument, about why Coulson should be seriously investigated. Yet in the end she made the right decision to support Coulson. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENT3. She ultimately gave up her commission, to save the organization. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENTre: your comments in the shout box, why the hate, ayanami or anyone else, for that matter! |
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Post by polgara on Jul 14, 2017 4:47:52 GMT
1. She defied Gonzales, and broke the computer chip that would have sunk the ship, along with knowing she would die, because she believed in SHIELD and its purpose. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENT
2. She at least entertained the idea that Gonzales had a strong argument, about why Coulson should be seriously investigated. Yet in the end she made the right decision to support Coulson. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENT3. She ultimately gave up her commission, to save the organization. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENTre: your comments in the shout box, why the hate, ayanami or anyone else, for that matter! I don't think there is permanent hate for Bobbi, just anger at her actions in season two. From what I have read most of the time people forgive Bobbi and really like her in season three. Now to you three points. 1. If she had followed orders, the monolith would have been lost and everything that happened in season three with Hive would not have happened. If there is no Hive then Radcliffe doesn't become involved with SHIELD and Fitz doesn't help create Aida. Even if Radcliffe does create an artificial intelligence it doesn't have the opportunity to interact with the Darkhold. The argument can be made that a lot of bad things happened because Bobbi wasn't a good enough agent to follow Fury's orders. 2. There was no loyalty in anything that had to do with "Real SHIELD". Why did they hide out from Coulson instead of coming to talk with him. I know people complain about Coulson being secretive, and I don't know why he kept project whatever from May, but it wasn't a total secret because the Koenigs knew about it. If González had shown up and been part of the team maybe he would have been in on the super secret stuff too. I've always thought a lot of this was sour grapes on González part because Fury didn't make him director. Getting back to, Bobbi, I think she would have shown more loyalty to SHIELD if she had brought the two sides together instead of HELPING THEM TO BREAK INTO THE BASE. 3. Resigning to protect SHIELD does show loyalty. Having said all of this I like Bobbi, but I don't think she is any more loyal than the other agents. I certainly don't think she is hated, especially when compared to Mack. |
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Post by beren44 on Jul 14, 2017 6:06:29 GMT
1. She defied Gonzales, and broke the computer chip that would have sunk the ship, along with knowing she would die, because she believed in SHIELD and its purpose. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENT
2. She at least entertained the idea that Gonzales had a strong argument, about why Coulson should be seriously investigated. Yet in the end she made the right decision to support Coulson. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENT3. She ultimately gave up her commission, to save the organization. SHE WAS A LOYAL SHIELD AGENTre: your comments in the shout box, why the hate, ayanami or anyone else, for that matter! I don't think there is permanent hate for Bobbi, just anger at her actions in season two. From what I have read most of the time people forgive Bobbi and really like her in season three. Now to you three points. 1. If she had followed orders, the monolith would have been lost and everything that happened in season three with Hive would not have happened. If there is no Hive then Radcliffe doesn't become involved with SHIELD and Fitz doesn't help create Aida. Even if Radcliffe does create an artificial intelligence it doesn't have the opportunity to interact with the Darkhold. The argument can be made that a lot of bad things happened because Bobbi wasn't a good enough agent to follow Fury's orders. 2. There was no loyalty in anything that had to do with "Real SHIELD". Why did they hide out from Coulson instead of coming to talk with him. I know people complain about Coulson being secretive, and I don't know why he kept project whatever from May, but it wasn't a total secret because the Koenigs knew about it. If González had shown up and been part of the team maybe he would have been in on the super secret stuff too. I've always thought a lot of this was sour grapes on González part because Fury didn't make him director. Getting back to, Bobbi, I think she would have shown more loyalty to SHIELD if she had brought the two sides together instead of HELPING THEM TO BREAK INTO THE BASE. 3. Resigning to protect SHIELD does show loyalty. Having said all of this I like Bobbi, but I don't think she is any more loyal than the other agents. I certainly don't think she is hated, especially when compared to Mack. , I don't know what happened, (probably user error) but I attempted to re-tag my own post with ayanami's shoutbox comments included, and it didn't work, I guess. Here they are: her comments:
ayanami: Kinda pissed about how Andrew lies to May, pretending not to know that Coulson is director of shield now, or that she's back in the field... 10 hours ago
ayanami: Bobbi is SUCH a bitch!! 10 hours ago
ayanami: Okay, that's it! I'd rather watch the Red Wedding than see Bobbi, Mack and all of Hufflepuff betray and belittle Hunter, Coulson and the ACTUAL Shield, knowing they'll get away with it scott free. Much LESS emotionally scarring!'Real Shield' was just as valid as 'Coulson's Shield'. They were both performing their duties in the best interest of the organization. There was no conflict of mission involved. 'Real Shield' was not out for nefarious reasons. I do wish they had reached out to Coulson before they did, and for that I have no explanation. I don't quite understand why they had to send in spies to find out what he was up to. Coulson and Gonzales both knew who each other were, before all that happened, and now that you made me think about it, Coulson looked for Gonzales for months, but Gonzales got scared about the 325 blood, and chose to send in a fact finding team. My whole point is, 'Real Shield' was not a bad organization. They too were out for the common good. I think they receive far too much bad blood for it. As far as the Koenigs go, well, that is an enigma. For only being level 6 operatives, they sure seem to have lived in another one of Fury's side-pockets, and unknown to the rest of the world. |
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Post by polgara on Jul 14, 2017 14:49:41 GMT
beren44 I had seen the comments in the shoutbox so I knew what you were referencing. I just don't think her hate for Bobbi was permanent the way her hate for Mack is. I have read other comments where she was sad to see her go (not just because of Hunter). I think from the point of view of the show Real SHIELD was set up as antagonists if not bad guys. If the show we were watching was a plucky band of SHIELD survivors sailing the high seas in their secret SHIELD ocean liner we would have disliked and been suspicious of Coulson and company. Of course it didn't help them to be so antagonistic towards Skye and her Inhuman powers.
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Post by sigasahab on Jul 14, 2017 15:20:48 GMT
beren44 I had seen the comments in the shoutbox so I knew what you were referencing. I just don't think her hate for Bobbi was permanent the way her hate for Mack is. I have read other comments where she was sad to see her go (not just because of Hunter). I think from the point of view of the show Real SHIELD was set up as antagonists if not bad guys. If the show we were watching was a plucky band of SHIELD survivors sailing the high seas in their secret SHIELD ocean liner we would have disliked and been suspicious of Coulson and company. Of course it didn't help them to be so antagonistic towards Skye and her Inhuman powers. I suspect that the writers wanted to try to replicate the success of the first season big betrayal but without the long-term consequences. Real SHIELD was a way to have trusted characters turn upon Coulson but then go back to being loyal agents afterwards. How successful that was is debatable. There's a scene where Mack says something like 'this won't end in a group hug, that's for sure' but it actually more-or-less does in the scene set straight after Age of Ultron.
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Post by Jemma Simmons on Jul 14, 2017 15:24:10 GMT
beren44 I had seen the comments in the shoutbox so I knew what you were referencing. I just don't think her hate for Bobbi was permanent the way her hate for Mack is. I have read other comments where she was sad to see her go (not just because of Hunter). I think from the point of view of the show Real SHIELD was set up as antagonists if not bad guys. If the show we were watching was a plucky band of SHIELD survivors sailing the high seas in their secret SHIELD ocean liner we would have disliked and been suspicious of Coulson and company. Of course it didn't help them to be so antagonistic towards Skye and her Inhuman powers. I agree. And the debate at that *other* place was really quite an interesting read the first time these episodes aired. It really boiled down to a discussion of "greater good for all" vs. "personal freedom", which is still a relevant argument today. I think people tend to give Bobbi more forgiveness for the "real SHIELD" thing than Mack is that once she started working with Coulson's team, she did have a valid concern regarding whether Coulson was compromised by the alien tech. However, once she realized that Coulson wasn't like Fury (i.e. there are no acceptable number of casualties during an op), she did start to question whether Gonzales was entirely correct in how he was going about things. After the Real SHIELD (tm) stuff, she also seemed to bond well with everyone else on the team. Mack... really only got along with Fitz to begin with, and Daisy later and still continues to frequently be an arse. |
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Post by sigasahab on Jul 14, 2017 15:27:40 GMT
Is 'arse' in general use in the US now? I thought that, traditionally, we only spelt it like that on my side of the Atlantic!
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Post by Jemma Simmons on Jul 14, 2017 15:32:28 GMT
Is 'arse' in general use in the US now? I thought that, traditionally, we only spelt it like that on my side of the Atlantic! I've always found this spelling much more elegant.  |
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 14, 2017 15:42:36 GMT
Is 'arse' in general use in the US now? I thought that, traditionally, we only spelt it like that on my side of the Atlantic! She's Jemma Simmons. You know, the one that uses her Britishness against them.................... |
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Post by polgara on Jul 14, 2017 16:50:56 GMT
beren44 I had seen the comments in the shoutbox so I knew what you were referencing. I just don't think her hate for Bobbi was permanent the way her hate for Mack is. I have read other comments where she was sad to see her go (not just because of Hunter). I think from the point of view of the show Real SHIELD was set up as antagonists if not bad guys. If the show we were watching was a plucky band of SHIELD survivors sailing the high seas in their secret SHIELD ocean liner we would have disliked and been suspicious of Coulson and company. Of course it didn't help them to be so antagonistic towards Skye and her Inhuman powers. I agree. And the debate at that *other* place was really quite an interesting read the first time these episodes aired. It really boiled down to a discussion of "greater good for all" vs. "personal freedom", which is still a relevant argument today. I think people tend to give Bobbi more forgiveness for the "real SHIELD" thing than Mack is that once she started working with Coulson's team, she did have a valid concern regarding whether Coulson was compromised by the alien tech. However, once she realized that Coulson wasn't like Fury (i.e. there are no acceptable number of casualties during an op), she did start to question whether Gonzales was entirely correct in how he was going about things. After the Real SHIELD (tm) stuff, she also seemed to bond well with everyone else on the team. Mack... really only got along with Fitz to begin with, and Daisy later and still continues to frequently be an arse. I don't find Mack to be an arse or an a*s. He certainly seems to get along with Coulson now and I think Yoyo might sort of like him.  What exactly does he do that makes him an ass? Is it because of his work with Real SHIELD? Literally everyone on this team now except Coulson has been guilty of betraying a team member. If it's because he calls people out when he disagrees with them, well so does the rest of the team. You can disagree with his opinions, but he still has the right to express them. I just don't get the Mack hate. |
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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Jul 14, 2017 18:34:20 GMT
She was loyal, yes. But I don't think she was the most loyal of all. If anything, she was on par with Coulson in that regard.
I had issues with Bobbi in the second season when I knew she was up to something, but she did quickly redeem herself to me once I knew she was a switch hitter and chose Coulson's side again.
My only real gripe with her is that she didn't flat out ICE Coulson in 'Closure'.
I would love to see her again. And Hunter.
And what are saying about the shoutbox? I usually come on here with my phone and yse the site in mobile mode so I can't even see the shoutbox unless I switch to desktop mode. And that's a bit of a pain in the ass.
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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Jul 14, 2017 18:54:13 GMT
I agree. And the debate at that *other* place was really quite an interesting read the first time these episodes aired. It really boiled down to a discussion of "greater good for all" vs. "personal freedom", which is still a relevant argument today. I think people tend to give Bobbi more forgiveness for the "real SHIELD" thing than Mack is that once she started working with Coulson's team, she did have a valid concern regarding whether Coulson was compromised by the alien tech. However, once she realized that Coulson wasn't like Fury (i.e. there are no acceptable number of casualties during an op), she did start to question whether Gonzales was entirely correct in how he was going about things. After the Real SHIELD (tm) stuff, she also seemed to bond well with everyone else on the team. Mack... really only got along with Fitz to begin with, and Daisy later and still continues to frequently be an arse. I don't find Mack to be an arse or an a*s. He certainly seems to get along with Coulson now and I think Yoyo might sort of like him. What exactly does he do that makes him an ass? Is it because of his work with Real SHIELD? Literally everyone on this team now except Coulson has been guilty of betraying a team member. If it's because he calls people out when he disagrees with them, well so does the rest of the team. You can disagree with his opinions, but he still has the right to express them. I just don't get the Mack hate. I'd just like to point out that technically you could argue Coulson has bretrayed the team twice: By, 1. Not telling the team about his penchant for ruining perfectly good walls with a knife and 2. Not telling the team, especially May, about Theta Protocol. Regardless of if we see those 2 things as betrayal, i'm sure some of the other characters may have. Back to topic: As a recent fan of Mack, I can tell you that one of the reasons I disliked him in season 2 and even sometimes in season 4 (I had problems with season 3 everywhere so I can't remember my opinion of him back then) is because he comes off as arrogant. Like, 'I'm better than you' arrogant. He is a nice polite guy that legitimately cares about his team, but there have been too many times when he's confronted a team member (Coulson, Fitz) and acted as though they were completely wrong without trying to see their side. Ironically, I feel the same about Steve Rogers. (#TeamIronMan) I like Mack the best in season 4 because I think he's the best partner for Coulson. His purpose for the writers is to be the Opposition in almost any argument. He thinks differently than most of the team and has different values and beliefs. He is a walking balance to the team's checks. But, he could use an attitude adjustment in some areas. |
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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Jul 14, 2017 19:23:57 GMT
I don't think there is permanent hate for Bobbi, just anger at her actions in season two. From what I have read most of the time people forgive Bobbi and really like her in season three. Now to you three points. 1. If she had followed orders, the monolith would have been lost and everything that happened in season three with Hive would not have happened. If there is no Hive then Radcliffe doesn't become involved with SHIELD and Fitz doesn't help create Aida. Even if Radcliffe does create an artificial intelligence it doesn't have the opportunity to interact with the Darkhold. The argument can be made that a lot of bad things happened because Bobbi wasn't a good enough agent to follow Fury's orders. 2. There was no loyalty in anything that had to do with "Real SHIELD". Why did they hide out from Coulson instead of coming to talk with him. I know people complain about Coulson being secretive, and I don't know why he kept project whatever from May, but it wasn't a total secret because the Koenigs knew about it. If González had shown up and been part of the team maybe he would have been in on the super secret stuff too. I've always thought a lot of this was sour grapes on González part because Fury didn't make him director. Getting back to, Bobbi, I think she would have shown more loyalty to SHIELD if she had brought the two sides together instead of HELPING THEM TO BREAK INTO THE BASE. 3. Resigning to protect SHIELD does show loyalty. Having said all of this I like Bobbi, but I don't think she is any more loyal than the other agents. I certainly don't think she is hated, especially when compared to Mack. , I don't know what happened, (probably user error) but I attempted to re-tag my own post with ayanami 's shoutbox comments included, and it didn't work, I guess. Here they are: her comments:
ayanami: Kinda pissed about how Andrew lies to May, pretending not to know that Coulson is director of shield now, or that she's back in the field... 10 hours ago
ayanami: Bobbi is SUCH a bitch!! 10 hours ago
ayanami: Okay, that's it! I'd rather watch the Red Wedding than see Bobbi, Mack and all of Hufflepuff betray and belittle Hunter, Coulson and the ACTUAL Shield, knowing they'll get away with it scott free. Much LESS emotionally scarring!'Real Shield' was just as valid as 'Coulson's Shield'. They were both performing their duties in the best interest of the organization. There was no conflict of mission involved. 'Real Shield' was not out for nefarious reasons. I do wish they had reached out to Coulson before they did, and for that I have no explanation. I don't quite understand why they had to send in spies to find out what he was up to. Coulson and Gonzales both knew who each other were, before all that happened, and now that you made me think about it, Coulson looked for Gonzales for months, but Gonzales got scared about the 325 blood, and chose to send in a fact finding team. My whole point is, 'Real Shield' was not a bad organization. They too were out for the common good. I think they receive far too much bad blood for it. As far as the Koenigs go, well, that is an enigma. For only being level 6 operatives, they sure seem to have lived in another one of Fury's side-pockets, and unknown to the rest of the world. Beren, my problem with the sailors aboars the good ship Illiad is that they sailed around doing jack while Coulson's SHIELD actively worked to rebuild itself, protect its Agents, and defeat HYDRA. To me, Team Gonzalez suffered from target fixation. If you don't know, target fixation is when a fighter pilot concentrates so hard on a target, they forget to mind their path, controls, and instruments and ends up crashing. It was never stated outright but I've always went with the assumption that Team Gonzalez never reached out to Coulson because, if Phil knew they existed and at what capacity, it'd be the equivalent of bluffing at a poker game. In their minds, nothing would stop him from dispensing with them for disagreeing with him and taking their stuff. They think he's Fury reincarnated after all. Also, just as Gonzalez agreed to let the team go rescue Lincoln and Mike and waste their own resources (RIP Bus), why not let them fight HYDRA in order to save their own resources and manpower? Having pondered these things an insane amount of time, I've wondered why Team Gonzalez didn't cash in on the intel they got on Coulson from Bobbi and Mack and take it to Talbot. They would have had a whole lot to gain by giving him the location of Coulson's base. Talbot would have probably even given them all pardons. And medals. |
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 14, 2017 21:46:24 GMT
Bobbi was not loyal to SHIELD. If she were, she'd have sunk the damn ship. Those were her orders from Fury, the Director of SHIELD.
She decided to disobey her orders and save the ship which gave her the opportunity to help set up Real SHIELD, elevating her status. Same for Mack. They were NOT loyal agents, they were, at best disloyal agents and at worst, traitors.
Her (their) loyalty was to Real SHIELD which is not SHIELD. Coulson was the Director of SHIELD. Gonzales was a gang leader with a big boat (and it still irks me the writers have forgotten about Phil's phloating phortress).
Bobbi and Mack were lucky to be allowed back on Phil's team.
She did shine at the end, though........ when she finally realized her loyalties to The Gonzale Gang were misplaced.
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or anyone else, for that matter! 
What exactly does he do that makes him an ass? Is it because of his work with Real SHIELD? Literally everyone on this team now except Coulson has been guilty of betraying a team member. If it's because he calls people out when he disagrees with them, well so does the rest of the team. You can disagree with his opinions, but he still has the right to express them. I just don't get the Mack hate.
