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Post by beren44 on Jul 14, 2017 23:19:11 GMT
Bobbi was not loyal to SHIELD. If she were, she'd have sunk the damn ship. Those were her orders from Fury, the Director of SHIELD. She decided to disobey her orders and save the ship which gave her the opportunity to help set up Real SHIELD, elevating her status. Same for Mack. They were NOT loyal agents, they were, at best disloyal agents and at worst, traitors. Her (their) loyalty was to Real SHIELD which is not SHIELD. Coulson was the Director of SHIELD. Gonzales was a gang leader with a big boat (and it still irks me the writers have forgotten about Phil's phloating phortress). Bobbi and Mack were lucky to be allowed back on Phil's team. She did shine at the end, though........ when she finally realized her loyalties to The Gonzale Gang were misplaced. Gotta disagree with you, bud. Bobbi was more loyal to SHIELD than she was to Fury (who was always a reckless mess), or Gonzales, OR Coulson. I still maintain that she made all her decisions in the best interest of the organization. |
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Post by polgara on Jul 14, 2017 23:26:14 GMT
I don't find Mack to be an arse or an a*s. He certainly seems to get along with Coulson now and I think Yoyo might sort of like him.  What exactly does he do that makes him an ass? Is it because of his work with Real SHIELD? Literally everyone on this team now except Coulson has been guilty of betraying a team member. If it's because he calls people out when he disagrees with them, well so does the rest of the team. You can disagree with his opinions, but he still has the right to express them. I just don't get the Mack hate.
I'd just like to point out that technically you could argue Coulson has bretrayed the team twice: By, 1. Not telling the team about his penchant for ruining perfectly good walls with a knife and 2. Not telling the team, especially May, about Theta Protocol. Regardless of if we see those 2 things as betrayal, i'm sure some of the other characters may have.
I knew someone would have this answer. As to point one I would argue that having May in on the secret was enough. Junior agents, and that is really what the rest of the team is, don't have to be told everything. As to point two I would say that as Director he has no obligation to share that information with anyone not involved in the project. Having said that I think it was only written this way to create tension between Coulson and May and there was no real in world reason to keep her in the dark.
Back to topic: As a recent fan of Mack, I can tell you that one of the reasons I disliked him in season 2 and even sometimes in season 4 (I had problems with season 3 everywhere so I can't remember my opinion of him back then) is because he comes off as arrogant. Like, 'I'm better than you' arrogant.
I don't see him as arrogant but as self assured. I think it was a lot more arrogant when Skye as a complete newbie would get in Coulson's face.He is a nice polite guy that legitimately cares about his team, but there have been too many times when he's confronted a team member (Coulson, Fitz) and acted as though they were completely wrong without trying to see their side.
Ironically, I feel the same about Steve Rogers. (#TeamIronMan)
There are no words for this piece of heresy, except I'll pray for you.  (#TeamCap)I like Mack the best in season 4 because I think he's the best partner for Coulson. His purpose for the writers is to be the Opposition in almost any argument. He thinks differently than most of the team and has different values and beliefs. He is a walking balance to the team's checks. But, he could use an attitude adjustment in some areas. |
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Post by polgara on Jul 14, 2017 23:29:08 GMT
Bobbi was not loyal to SHIELD. If she were, she'd have sunk the damn ship. Those were her orders from Fury, the Director of SHIELD. She decided to disobey her orders and save the ship which gave her the opportunity to help set up Real SHIELD, elevating her status. Same for Mack. They were NOT loyal agents, they were, at best disloyal agents and at worst, traitors. Her (their) loyalty was to Real SHIELD which is not SHIELD. Coulson was the Director of SHIELD. Gonzales was a gang leader with a big boat (and it still irks me the writers have forgotten about Phil's phloating phortress). Bobbi and Mack were lucky to be allowed back on Phil's team. She did shine at the end, though........ when she finally realized her loyalties to The Gonzale Gang were misplaced. Gotta disagree with you, bud. Bobbi was more loyal to SHIELD than she was to Fury (who was always a reckless mess), or Gonzales, OR Coulson. I still maintain that she made all her decisions in the best interest of the organization. Nope! If the organization's purpose is to be a SHIELD to the world, then she failed miserably when she didn't destroy that monolith. |
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 14, 2017 23:58:28 GMT
Bobbi was not loyal to SHIELD. If she were, she'd have sunk the damn ship. Those were her orders from Fury, the Director of SHIELD. She decided to disobey her orders and save the ship which gave her the opportunity to help set up Real SHIELD, elevating her status. Same for Mack. They were NOT loyal agents, they were, at best disloyal agents and at worst, traitors. Her (their) loyalty was to Real SHIELD which is not SHIELD. Coulson was the Director of SHIELD. Gonzales was a gang leader with a big boat (and it still irks me the writers have forgotten about Phil's phloating phortress). Bobbi and Mack were lucky to be allowed back on Phil's team. She did shine at the end, though........ when she finally realized her loyalties to The Gonzale Gang were misplaced. Gotta disagree with you, bud. Bobbi was more loyal to SHIELD than she was to Fury (who was always a reckless mess), or Gonzales, OR Coulson. I still maintain that she made all her decisions in the best interest of the organization. Sorry, but you're off course, bud. She wasn't loyal to SHIELD, she was loyal to her idea of SHIELD. Real SHIELD wasn't SHIELD. Just because they called themselves that doesn't make them any kind of SHIELD. They were terrorist thugs that mounted an unsuccessful coup de ta. |
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Post by beren44 on Jul 15, 2017 0:18:02 GMT
Gotta disagree with you, bud. Bobbi was more loyal to SHIELD than she was to Fury (who was always a reckless mess), or Gonzales, OR Coulson. I still maintain that she made all her decisions in the best interest of the organization. Sorry, but you're off course, bud. She wasn't loyal to SHIELD, she was loyal to her idea of SHIELD. Real SHIELD wasn't SHIELD. Just because they called themselves that doesn't make them any kind of SHIELD. They were terrorist thugs that mounted an unsuccessful coup de ta. Fisticuffs it is, then, over this one  Yes, she was loyal to her idea of SHIELD. That was kinda my original point! But where are you coming from, calling them terrorist thugs? My gosh, even though Bobbi betrayed (then presumed dead Fury), AND Gonzales, with his chopped up leg, when he wanted to complete the mission to sink the ship, there was not a single action she made that could be considered terrorist, OR thug! |
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 15, 2017 1:31:58 GMT
Sorry, but you're off course, bud. She wasn't loyal to SHIELD, she was loyal to her idea of SHIELD. Real SHIELD wasn't SHIELD. Just because they called themselves that doesn't make them any kind of SHIELD. They were terrorist thugs that mounted an unsuccessful coup de ta. Fisticuffs it is, then, over this one Yes, she was loyal to her idea of SHIELD. That was kinda my original point! But where are you coming from, calling them terrorist thugs? My gosh, even though Bobbi betrayed (then presumed dead Fury), AND Gonzales, with his chopped up leg, when he wanted to complete the mission to sink the ship, there was not a single action she made that could be considered terrorist, OR thug! The only observable mission R.S. had was to overthrow Coulson and take over his organization: The REAL SHIELD. Having no other mission, and carrying out that singular mission by knocking out the systems of the base, using explosives and then gassing the SHIELD agents, to me, makes them terrorist thugs. Hydra..... Real SHIELD...... Two sides of the same terrorist coin. |
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Post by sigasahab on Jul 15, 2017 8:59:50 GMT
DTM: "Hydra..... Real SHIELD...... Two sides of the same terrorist coin."
Yeah, I think you might be just being controversial there.
I note your 'observable' but I'm surprised that there's a general impression that Real SHIELD were just sailing around doing nothing except for their anti-Coulson operation. I took it as read that they had unseen adventures like any other off-screen characters.
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 15, 2017 14:20:49 GMT
DTM: "Hydra..... Real SHIELD...... Two sides of the same terrorist coin." Yeah, I think you might be just being controversial there. I note your 'observable' but I'm surprised that there's a general impression that Real SHIELD were just sailing around doing nothing except for their anti-Coulson operation. I took it as read that they had unseen adventures like any other off-screen characters. The show never showed any hint that they had any other mission or purpose and there were opportunities to do so: when they laid their cards on the table to Hunter, May and Coulson; conversations Bobbi and Mack had with FitzSimmons and May....... there were plenty of chances to demonstrate ANY type of other mission/purpose but that didn't happen. Now it's possible they had a long range plan to attempt legitimize their version of SHIELD, but it's clear their first (and seemingly only) priority was to dethrone Coulson and take over his organization in blitzkrieg fashion. Hydra may be a more nefarious organization but on the surface Hydra and Real SHIELD used basically the same tactics to accomplish the same goal: Infiltrate and attack from within. |
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Post by sigasahab on Jul 15, 2017 15:19:17 GMT
Gonzales commanded a lot of loyalty from agents that apparently never served under him originally on the Iliad, notably Weaver (the Director of SHIELD's science academy), Bobbie Morse and Isabelle Hartley.
Tomas Calderon is described as having "co-opted a squadron of Quinjets" to come to the assistance of Weaver at the Academy, which suggests to me that they weren't sent from the Iliad.
Basically, all of the personnel of Real SHIELD were agents who directly fought back against Hydra's attempt to take over, not just on the Iliad but across the organisation. The nature of their subsequent working relationship suggests to me that they weren't just sitting on their hands after that.
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Post by beren44 on Jul 15, 2017 15:56:25 GMT
DTM: "Hydra..... Real SHIELD...... Two sides of the same terrorist coin." Yeah, I think you might be just being controversial there. I note your 'observable' but I'm surprised that there's a general impression that Real SHIELD were just sailing around doing nothing except for their anti-Coulson operation. I took it as read that they had unseen adventures like any other off-screen characters. The show never showed any hint that they had any other mission or purpose and there were opportunities to do so: when they laid their cards on the table to Hunter, May and Coulson; conversations Bobbi and Mack had with FitzSimmons and May....... there were plenty of chances to demonstrate ANY type of other mission/purpose but that didn't happen. Now it's possible they had a long range plan to attempt legitimize their version of SHIELD, but it's clear their first (and seemingly only) priority was to dethrone Coulson and take over his organization in blitzkrieg fashion.Hydra may be a more nefarious organization but on the surface Hydra and Real SHIELD used basically the same tactics to accomplish the same goal: Infiltrate and attack from within. What?? he never even listened to Coulson's record collection. He didn't want to become the leader. And, well, when he DID take charge for a very brief time (or at least had his opinion upheld), it ended up in a fractured fairy tale, in short order. As in, lots of fractures, and a pile of black dust. |
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Post by DoTheMath on Jul 15, 2017 15:57:41 GMT
Gonzales commanded a lot of loyalty from agents that apparently never served under him originally on the Iliad, notably Weaver (the Director of SHIELD's science academy), Bobbie Morse and Isabelle Hartley. Tomas Calderon is described as having "co-opted a squadron of Quinjets" to come to the assistance of Weaver at the Academy, which suggests to me that they weren't sent from the Iliad. Basically, all of the personnel of Real SHIELD were agents who directly fought back against Hydra's attempt to take over, not just on the Iliad but across the organisation. The nature of their subsequent working relationship suggests to me that they weren't just sitting on their hands after that. I prefer not to assume. They used their three most valuable and capable agents to infiltrate Coulson's organization (one of which, Bobbi, was a freakin member of their stupid "board"). They devoted mass resources and energy to gather intel on Coulson, his team and their missions. What I saw was them staying in the shadows and using all the resources at their disposal to take down SHIELD (so deep in the shadows that Coulson couldn't find Gonzales whom he ardently search for to join his team). If they had once, and I mean JUST ONCE, suggested they did anything else, I might back off; but there was never ANY indication they had anything else going on. Like I said, they may have had long term goals to pursue after taking down SHIELD (God, I would hope so) but from what we saw on our TVs, their singular focus was to to topple SHIELD; and, xenophobia fueled their blitzkrieg engines. |
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Post by sigasahab on Jul 15, 2017 16:01:45 GMT
Okay, your assessment differs from that of Coulson but you are certainly entitled to it.
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Post by polgara on Jul 15, 2017 16:03:29 GMT
The show never showed any hint that they had any other mission or purpose and there were opportunities to do so: when they laid their cards on the table to Hunter, May and Coulson; conversations Bobbi and Mack had with FitzSimmons and May....... there were plenty of chances to demonstrate ANY type of other mission/purpose but that didn't happen. Now it's possible they had a long range plan to attempt legitimize their version of SHIELD, but it's clear their first (and seemingly only) priority was to dethrone Coulson and take over his organization in blitzkrieg fashion.Hydra may be a more nefarious organization but on the surface Hydra and Real SHIELD used basically the same tactics to accomplish the same goal: Infiltrate and attack from within. What?? he never even listened to Coulson's record collection. He didn't want to become the leader. And, well, when he DID take charge for a very brief time (or at least had his opinion upheld), it ended up in a fractured fairy tale, in short order. As in, lots of fractures, and a pile of black dust. González totally wanted to be the leader! They may have said that decisions would be made by a committee, but he was definitely first among equals. I said it in an earlier post, I think most of his problems with Coulson stem from the fact he wanted to be chosen as director. |
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Post by beren44 on Jul 15, 2017 16:50:57 GMT
What?? he never even listened to Coulson's record collection. He didn't want to become the leader. And, well, when he DID take charge for a very brief time (or at least had his opinion upheld), it ended up in a fractured fairy tale, in short order. As in, lots of fractures, and a pile of black dust. González totally wanted to be the leader! They may have said that decisions would be made by a committee, but he was definitely first among equals. I said it in an earlier post, I think most of his problems with Coulson stem from the fact he wanted tombs chosen as director. I find that you rarely hush up <3 <3 <3 |
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Post by polgara on Jul 15, 2017 17:06:14 GMT
González totally wanted to be the leader! They may have said that decisions would be made by a committee, but he was definitely first among equals. I said it in an earlier post, I think most of his problems with Coulson stem from the fact he wanted tombs chosen as director. I find that you rarely hush up <3 <3 <3 Very true! However as you have captured one of my typos for all eternity, I will slink away in silence now. But before I go, I'm still right.  |
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What exactly does he do that makes him an ass? Is it because of his work with Real SHIELD? Literally everyone on this team now except Coulson has been guilty of betraying a team member. If it's because he calls people out when he disagrees with them, well so does the rest of the team. You can disagree with his opinions, but he still has the right to express them. I just don't get the Mack hate.
(#TeamCap)
Yes, she was loyal to her idea of SHIELD. That was kinda my original point! But where are you coming from, calling them terrorist thugs? My gosh, even though Bobbi betrayed (then presumed dead Fury), AND Gonzales, with his chopped up leg, when he wanted to complete the mission to sink the ship, there was not a single action she made that could be considered terrorist, OR thug! 
