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Post by terminator22 on Feb 22, 2017 14:59:58 GMT
exploring the framework in the 3rd arc. There are only a handful of episodes left, and I want most of them to be in the real world. So please, limit the framework to 1 or 2 episodes.  The framework ending is my only complaint about last night's episode. Everything else was amazing. Simmons and LMD Fitz had the best FitzSimmons moment I've seen yet. Daisy & Mace had one heck of a fight. Coulson & May had excellent chemistry. It was great all around! |
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Post by b4icuhang on Feb 22, 2017 15:53:32 GMT
I don't know. It's an interesting thing to explore. Does removing our regrets give us better lives.
It's getting too late to start another arc, unless this is wrapped in one , which I doubt. I'd say that dealing with the framework and the possibilities of their futures is going wrap the season. Kind of a Jimmy Stuart moment.
I'm interested to see how much influence Coulson had on the world, and how the world is shaped without his influence. Even though it's not reality, it's a world shaped by their changed desires.
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Post by uriel on Feb 23, 2017 1:48:22 GMT
Surely the senator's inhuman brother has to return? And what's Aida planning with the Darkhold?
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Post by koos on Feb 23, 2017 8:12:40 GMT
Yeah, the Darkhold is the endgame, even more than stopping AIDA. Especially now that the RoboInferior will also read the book. And help her getting emotions.
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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Feb 23, 2017 19:28:16 GMT
exploring the framework in the 3rd arc. There are only a handful of episodes left, and I want most of them to be in the real world. So please, limit the framework to 1 or 2 episodes. The framework ending is my only complaint about last night's episode. Everything else was amazing. Simmons and LMD Fitz had the best FitzSimmons moment I've seen yet. Daisy & Mace had one heck of a fight. Coulson & May had excellent chemistry. It was great all around! Am I a bad fan if I say that was one of the only things I liked? It was a good episode, but there were so many parts that didn't sit well with me, I find it hard to say that I liked it as a whole. I mean I liked it, but not easily and not without wishing certain things didn't happen. |
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Post by koos on Feb 23, 2017 19:44:04 GMT
exploring the framework in the 3rd arc. There are only a handful of episodes left, and I want most of them to be in the real world. So please, limit the framework to 1 or 2 episodes. The framework ending is my only complaint about last night's episode. Everything else was amazing. Simmons and LMD Fitz had the best FitzSimmons moment I've seen yet. Daisy & Mace had one heck of a fight. Coulson & May had excellent chemistry. It was great all around! Am I a bad fan if I say that was one of the only things I liked? I very much liked the episode, but the framework ending was by far my favorite part. |
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Post by socialman on Feb 23, 2017 22:59:06 GMT
I don't know. It's an interesting thing to explore. Does removing our regrets give us better lives. It's getting too late to start another arc, unless this is wrapped in one , which I doubt. I'd say that dealing with the framework and the possibilities of their futures is going wrap the season. Kind of a Jimmy Stuart moment. I'm interested to see how much influence Coulson had on the world, and how the world is shaped without his influence. Even though it's not reality, it's a world shaped by their changed desires. I love the balance they have with these arcs, where in the first arc they kind-of explored the concept of literal hell with Ghost Rider, this arc seems to be working up to the concept of heaven (perfect world, immortality, less regret, etc.). Thematically, I'm very curious where all this is going. |
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Post by koos on Feb 23, 2017 23:20:56 GMT
Good observation. Well, what else is there hell and heaven? Reality?
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Post by b4icuhang on Feb 26, 2017 13:53:05 GMT
I don't know. It's an interesting thing to explore. Does removing our regrets give us better lives. It's getting too late to start another arc, unless this is wrapped in one , which I doubt. I'd say that dealing with the framework and the possibilities of their futures is going wrap the season. Kind of a Jimmy Stuart moment. I'm interested to see how much influence Coulson had on the world, and how the world is shaped without his influence. Even though it's not reality, it's a world shaped by their changed desires. I love the balance they have with these arcs, where in the first arc they kind-of explored the concept of literal hell with Ghost Rider, this arc seems to be working up to the concept of heaven (perfect world, immortality, less regret, etc.). Thematically, I'm very curious where all this is going. I agree. Interesting themes. I'm also interested to see how this world is set up. Did Cap never exist? Did the Insight program succeed? I can't wait for the season to continue. I also loved Lmd May's conversation with Lmd Phil before she lit up the base. I don't know. I had this gut reaction she was going to react differently than the others. |
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Post by ayanami on Feb 26, 2017 15:10:36 GMT
I love the balance they have with these arcs, where in the first arc they kind-of explored the concept of literal hell with Ghost Rider, this arc seems to be working up to the concept of heaven (perfect world, immortality, less regret, etc.). Thematically, I'm very curious where all this is going. I agree. Interesting themes. I'm also interested to see how this world is set up. Did Cap never exist? Did the Insight program succeed? I can't wait for the season to continue. I also loved Lmd May's conversation with Lmd Phil before she lit up the base. I don't know. I had this gut reaction she was going to react differently than the others. Going by the tidbits of information about the framework we got from the conversations between Ratcliffe and Aida, I think it is very close to the real world of the show, adjusted to make up for any regrets the participants had. Meaning, the history should be the same. It's only the stuff the people in the framework directly influenced - like Coulson not joining Shield - that changed stuff. |
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Post by socialman on Feb 28, 2017 13:10:56 GMT
I agree. Interesting themes. I'm also interested to see how this world is set up. Did Cap never exist? Did the Insight program succeed? I can't wait for the season to continue. I also loved Lmd May's conversation with Lmd Phil before she lit up the base. I don't know. I had this gut reaction she was going to react differently than the others. Going by the tidbits of information about the framework we got from the conversations between Ratcliffe and Aida, I think it is very close to the real world of the show, adjusted to make up for any regrets the participants had. Meaning, the history should be the same. It's only the stuff the people in the framework directly influenced - like Coulson not joining Shield - that changed stuff. Changed stuff changes other stuff, it's the ripple effect Doc Brown talks about. How far back did Aida need to go to change things that happened for a reason and still keep the Framework reality consistant ? Like Coulson getting recruited when studying history, how far back was that ? Or the Triskellion being a Hydra building complete with its logo on the outside wall, something that wouldn't happen unless the history up to that point allowed a Nazi remnant to be this prominent in the US capital. And I'm not even talking about May's allegiance to them. That amounts to changes going back to at least WW2, just to make up for regrets to keep them happy now. I really hope they take the time to explore, or at least explain, some of that. |
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Post by ayanami on Feb 28, 2017 14:54:54 GMT
Going by the tidbits of information about the framework we got from the conversations between Ratcliffe and Aida, I think it is very close to the real world of the show, adjusted to make up for any regrets the participants had. Meaning, the history should be the same. It's only the stuff the people in the framework directly influenced - like Coulson not joining Shield - that changed stuff. Changed stuff changes other stuff, it's the ripple effect Doc Brown talks about. How far back did Aida need to go to change things that happened for a reason and still keep the Framework reality consistant ? Like Coulson getting recruited when studying history, how far back was that ? Or the Triskellion being a Hydra building complete with its logo on the outside wall, something that wouldn't happen unless the history up to that point allowed a Nazi remnant to be this prominent in the US capital. And I'm not even talking about May's allegiance to them. That amounts to changes going back to at least WW2, just to make up for regrets to keep them happy now. I really hope they take the time to explore, or at least explain, some of that. Why does any of that need to go back to WWII? Coulson being recruited by Shield was like thirty years ago, give or take. In this case he wasn't, meaning he never met Steve Rogers or the other Avengers. Maybe that means the Avengers were never even formed. The Chitauri invasion never happened or was stopped by nuking Manhattan. Hydra successfully carried out Project Inside and took over Shield. At this point they changed the logo on the Triskellion. Without Coulson's influence inside Shield, May took a slightly darker path somewhere down the road and was recruited into Hydra, explaining her allegiance to them now. Obviously that's all speculation at this point, and it's entirely possible that Aida changed the history inside the framework all the way back to WWII or even earlier, but it's definitely not a foregone conclusion to be able to explain the changes in the world we've seen in those few glimpses in the last episode. |
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Post by socialman on Mar 1, 2017 9:22:28 GMT
Changed stuff changes other stuff, it's the ripple effect Doc Brown talks about. How far back did Aida need to go to change things that happened for a reason and still keep the Framework reality consistant ? Like Coulson getting recruited when studying history, how far back was that ? Or the Triskellion being a Hydra building complete with its logo on the outside wall, something that wouldn't happen unless the history up to that point allowed a Nazi remnant to be this prominent in the US capital. And I'm not even talking about May's allegiance to them. That amounts to changes going back to at least WW2, just to make up for regrets to keep them happy now. I really hope they take the time to explore, or at least explain, some of that. Why does any of that need to go back to WWII? Coulson being recruited by Shield was like thirty years ago, give or take. In this case he wasn't, meaning he never met Steve Rogers or the other Avengers. Maybe that means the Avengers were never even formed. The Chitauri invasion never happened or was stopped by nuking Manhattan. Hydra successfully carried out Project Inside and took over Shield. At this point they changed the logo on the Triskellion. Without Coulson's influence inside Shield, May took a slightly darker path somewhere down the road and was recruited into Hydra, explaining her allegiance to them now. Obviously that's all speculation at this point, and it's entirely possible that Aida changed the history inside the framework all the way back to WWII or even earlier, but it's definitely not a foregone conclusion to be able to explain the changes in the world we've seen in those few glimpses in the last episode. Why all the way back to WW2 ? Pretty much just because of Hydra, a Nazi organisation, being prominently placed in Washington DC instead of hiding under some rock. I would say it takes a little longer than a few years (since the events of Winter Soldier) to shape the general population into accepting Nazi terrorists as this large a part of their own culture, and a lot more than what amounts to the hostile takeover of one company (under-selling it for clarity). So much so that Insight might not even have been needed. Also, in this reality it looked like the Triskellion was never damaged, instead of rebuilt exactly the same after pretty much complete destruction. If I take the tie-in comics into account (which I shouldn't ), didn't Coulson have a big part in finding Steve Rogers ? Doesn't change the more public rise of Hydra as much as their lack of opposistion, but says more about Coulson's part in all of this, since Steve was also a big part of him being the way he is. How come Captain America is no longer an inspiration for young Coulson ? This would point to two events having changed: Captain America was never created, and Hydra's rise to power using the Tesseract. And all that Aida would need to change for this to happen was Thorin Oakenshield blowing up Erskine's experiment on Steve five minutes earlier. If only this was time travel instead of virtual reality, they could have so much fun exploring these things. |
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Post by b4icuhang on Mar 31, 2017 22:49:24 GMT
I agree. Interesting themes. I'm also interested to see how this world is set up. Did Cap never exist? Did the Insight program succeed? I can't wait for the season to continue. I also loved Lmd May's conversation with Lmd Phil before she lit up the base. I don't know. I had this gut reaction she was going to react differently than the others. Going by the tidbits of information about the framework we got from the conversations between Ratcliffe and Aida, I think it is very close to the real world of the show, adjusted to make up for any regrets the participants had. Meaning, the history should be the same. It's only the stuff the people in the framework directly influenced - like Coulson not joining Shield - that changed stuff. I like Coulson, but he's not the only reason Hydra failed. A Hydra world is nowhere close to a real world. For the world to be run by hydra, something happened to Cap. Maybe Hydra succeeded in WW2 and Erskine died before he could create the serum for Cap. But just because Coulson didn't become an agent, didn't change his heart. Unless Aida removed that desire by going farther back ands letting Hydra win in WW2, meaning Coulson would have grown up in a Hydra world ands accepted it as normal. |
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Post by ayanami on Mar 31, 2017 23:46:16 GMT
Going by the tidbits of information about the framework we got from the conversations between Ratcliffe and Aida, I think it is very close to the real world of the show, adjusted to make up for any regrets the participants had. Meaning, the history should be the same. It's only the stuff the people in the framework directly influenced - like Coulson not joining Shield - that changed stuff. I like Coulson, but he's not the only reason Hydra failed. A Hydra world is nowhere close to a real world. For the world to be run by hydra, something happened to Cap. Maybe Hydra succeeded in WW2 and Erskine died before he could create the serum for Cap. But just because Coulson didn't become an agent, didn't change his heart. Unless Aida removed that desire by going farther back ands letting Hydra win in WW2, meaning Coulson would have grown up in a Hydra world ands accepted it as normal. Considering we're only a couple of days away from an answer to those question, I guess it's rather futile to speculate further. We'll find out soon enough when Hydra took over the world. One small detail that just occured to me though - and that will cause me to laugh my ass off, should the writers actually bring it up: Back in season 1 it was mentioned that Fitz invented the mouse hole, the laser cutiter Fury used to escape the Winter Soldier's first attack in the movie. It appeaers that Fitz didn't become an agent, either, no mouse hole, no Fury, no chance of stopping Project Insight. As I said, I don't expect that to be mentioned, but it would be too funny if they did!  |
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I'll be spending next weekend with some family I like and trying to avoid any remotely controversial conversations with others that I spend the rest of the year avoiding 