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Post by ayanami on Apr 29, 2017 0:55:07 GMT
NONE of the real life players should have a change of heart about the FramePlayers. Of course, that is going to be a little more difficult for Simmons and Daisy, given that they are not regret-changed in the FW. But still, Simmons should no more start warming up to FWWard than she should hating FWFitz. It just makes no sense. Sorry, but your argument makes no sense. Fitz is a real person, someone she's known for years and whom she's deeply in love with. His memories and thereby his personality has been altered, yes, but it happened against his will. True, I don't see their relationship commencing if he were to stay this way, but at this point there is obviously no reason for her to hate him.
Ward isn't the real Ward, though. So why hate him? What has this guy ever done to her? Nothing! He's basically an alternate reality version of Ward, so why blame him for the actions of someone else? Sure, it might be difficult at first to see past the familiar face (she doesn't seem to be the only one with that problem ), but in the end there is no objective reason to be mad at FW Ward.B: and those are different how? Why should she change her opinion of either RL character, because of changes in the FW?Okay, are we even talking about the same thing here? You initially said "FramePlayers", which, to me, means the characters as they all are now in the FW. That includes good-guy-Ward (yes, I said it!  ), badass-Burrows, still-alive-Trip, not-dust-Bakshi, etc. I'm not saying - nor have I ever - that Simmons or the rest of the team should forgive RL Ward's deeds. Like Skye, they might understand him better, but that doesn't mean he should be forgiven. My point was always just that FW Ward doesn't deserve to be blamed for what happened in the real world. That wasn't him. So I want Simmons (and some of the viewers *wink* *wink*) to get over herself and don't hold a grudge against the wrong person. Well, I know I've mentioned that one in our other discussion.  Still, I don't see you commenting on how May switching sides seems to be a common behaviour for her, too. Plus, I would call someone being willing to go undercover inside Hydra, to fight their brutal regime at massive personal risk, a very brave person who obviously puts the greater good before themselves. Some might call that "heroic" even. Like Bobbi and Jemma were back in the day. Which is quite unlike what Bobbi did with Mack btw. First, they were spying on and later actively betraying people who should have been their allies. Second, no matter what doubts and suspicions Gonzales et al had about Coulson at the time, I doubt anyone of them thought that he would put Bobbi and Mack against the wall and shoot them in the head if he found out about their betrayal. Which is what Hydra would have done. If they had been lucky! |
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Post by beren44 on Apr 29, 2017 1:09:30 GMT
ayanami , we are both not being fair to Jemma Simmons (its her thread) and the others here..lets take this conversation back to the horsey graveyard if you want to talk further, ok?  And let this thread get back on path.
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Post by Jemma Simmons on Apr 29, 2017 1:18:21 GMT
ayanami , we are both not being fair to Jemma Simmons (its her thread) and the others here..lets take this conversation back to the horsey graveyard if you want to talk further, ok? And let this thread get back on path. That's why I made this thread! I'm just watching the banter right now and enjoying some popcorn. Carry on! |
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Post by polgara on Apr 29, 2017 2:52:30 GMT
I would like chime in on a couple of points here, but I will have to do it without all the cool color coding y'all are using. First of all I don't understand Jemma hating FW Ward mainly because she doesn't believe in him. As far as she is concerned he is just a bit of computer code. Why waste energy hating something that isn't real? Now if Ward were brought back to the real world, I could better understand the dilemma. But in the end, to use a different TNG analogy it would be like blaming Tom Riker for something Will Riker did. Secondly I think the writers very deliberately used the symmetry of Ward torturing Jemma and Fitz torturing Daisy to start this kind of discussion. If Jemma can't, for lack of a better term, forgive a different Ward, how can Daisy forgive a different Fitz? Having said all that, I don't want them to bring back Ward. He's RW dead twice; let's leave him that way. |
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Post by polgara on Apr 29, 2017 3:13:48 GMT
At that point, he had already been brainwashed enough that it was difficult to override that "programming". Look at the way FW Hydra attempted to brainwash those kids. How can we possibly know for sure that RW Ward wasn't exposed to something similar? If he had been it would have been for a longer period of time than those framework kids. Also, there wouldn't have been a rescue for him the way those kids were rescued. Not that I'm excusing his actions, but merely giving an alternative way of looking at his motivations. He was not given the choice to walk away from his father. To make that possible he is actually already different as a person from the real Fitz. If they want to make a case that Ward could have been a good guy had he met someone else than Garret. That's fine. But Fitz's path is not valid argument in this. I'm going to have to disagree here. Using Fitz's own words from the end of episode 18 "You don't know me at all." I think that dark streak has always been there, but under control. Fitz is very single minded and driven to achieve no matter what. It's why he wouldn't give up looking for Jemma. It's why he is so creative. But single mindedness and driven can turn into obsession and a win at all costs mentality if not tempered with compassion. RW Fitz is a man of compassion presumably because of his upbringing by mom. I'm basing that on all the anti-mom comments made by FW dad. If the real Fitz had been taught to despise compassion, he might very well be like FW Fitz. |
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Post by FreeKresge on Apr 29, 2017 5:39:25 GMT
To cover several points in this discussion:
I can see parallels between Framework Fitz and real Ward. However, I can understand how Simmons does not because, from her perspective, the Framework is fake. In her reality, Fitz is good and Ward is evil. Maybe she should trust that Framework Ward is good. However, Ward never tried to kill me and never tortured me. Until I have been through that experience, I do not see how I can judge her. I will be disappointed in the writers if there are not consequences to the FitzSimmons relationship from the events of the last few episodes, and I had better see these consequences on screen rather than be told about them in a fifth season premiere.
It was stated that Fitz's father left him when he was ten. There are psychologists (not me) who say that personality is pretty much fixed by the time a person is five years old. IF true, this would mean that there should be no difference in his father's influence on Framework Fitz versus real Fitz if Fitz's regret was that his father left him. I do not take that extreme view. However, I concede that a large chuck of Fitz's personality was determined at conception, and the first few years of life are very important for personality development. My guess is either (A) the writers do not realize this, (B) Fitz's regret really is not that his father left but that he did not have a close relationship with his father, including during his first ten years, or (C) as I note below, the Framework is not really about erasing regrets.
I agree that Garrett was not a good influence on Ward. However, Ward was already in jail when he met Garrett. If nobody in either Hydra or S.H.I.E.L.D. noticed Ward, I doubt that he would have turned out well. His parents and his older brother already saw to that. The message is not so much that Garrett made Ward evil but that it would have taken something extraordinary to make him good.
I am on the side of not believing AIDA when she said that the Framework simply represents what would happen if May, Coulson, Fitz, Mack, and Mace were each able to change her or his biggest regret. The presence of AIDA as Madame Hydra pretty much proves this. The only real world equivalents of Madame Hydra are Agnes, who already appears as a separate entity in the Framework, and AIDA herself. However, Madame Hydra is human, so she is not AIDA either. She appears to be a new addition beyond the regrets of the five S.H.I.E.L.D. agents in the Framework.
It is possible that the Framework also includes AIDA's biggest regret, that she is not human. However, I believe that the Framework is now a vehicle for AIDA to create her Pinocchio ("I want to be a real girl") machine. It serves the purpose both of keeping S.H.I.E.L.D. distracted and of manipulating Fitz into helping. Regrets may have been erased, but AIDA deliberately did so in a way that furthers her goals, not how they would have occurred naturally.
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Post by Jemma Simmons on Apr 29, 2017 11:43:46 GMT
I would like chime in on a couple of points here, but I will have to do it without all the cool color coding y'all are using. First of all I don't understand Jemma hating FW Ward mainly because she doesn't believe in him. As far as she is concerned he is just a bit of computer code. Why waste energy hating something that isn't real? Now if Ward were brought back to the real world, I could better understand the dilemma. But in the end, to use a different TNG analogy it would be like blaming Tom Riker for something Will Riker did. Secondly I think the writers very deliberately used the symmetry of Ward torturing Jemma and Fitz torturing Daisy to start this kind of discussion. If Jemma can't, for lack of a better term, forgive a different Ward, how can Daisy forgive a different Fitz? Having said all that, I don't want them to bring back Ward. He's RW dead twice; let's leave him that way. I'm honestly not so sure she really believes that at this point, alhough definitely this was the case when entering the FW. At this point, I see it more as a coping mechanism to keep from getting too attached to any FW residents. GreatvStar Trek comparison! |
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Post by beren44 on Apr 29, 2017 14:34:02 GMT
ayanami , we are both not being fair to Jemma Simmons (its her thread) and the others here..lets take this conversation back to the horsey graveyard if you want to talk further, ok? And let this thread get back on path. That's why I made this thread! I'm just watching the banter right now and enjoying some popcorn. Carry on! You see that, ayanami ? You see what she did there?? She is just egging us on, to feed her maniacal popcorn addiction! Sheesh, she used to be nice until Mace made her all 'boss-lady'...      |
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Post by ayanami on Apr 29, 2017 16:52:42 GMT
That's why I made this thread! I'm just watching the banter right now and enjoying some popcorn. Carry on! You see that, ayanami ? You see what she did there?? She is just egging us on, to feed her maniacal popcorn addiction! Sheesh, she used to be nice until Mace made her all 'boss-lady'... I guess it's her way of passing the time until next Tuesday. Starting her own fight club to watch. |
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Post by ayanami on May 11, 2017 0:37:59 GMT
Lol, it's pretty funny to me how we've all (including the author of the article in the OP) been speculating whether Jemma would at some point acknowledge the similarities between RL Ward and FW Fitz, only for it to be Fitz, who - now with his memories restored - spells it out for us.
"Just like Ward. I'm just like Ward."
I've never really expected the show to bring Brett back for good, and neither do I want them to, and yet, this blatant statement by Fitz, putting so many of the real Ward's actions into perspective, kinda makes me wonder if they're going to do it after all. Plus, now with Yoyo in the framework, it seems that we're not done with that world after all. Next week is certainly gonna be interesting...
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Post by aquaangel on May 11, 2017 1:23:56 GMT
Lol, it's pretty funny to me how we've all (including the author of the article in the OP) been speculating whether Jemma would at some point acknowledge the similarities between RL Ward and FW Fitz, only for it to be Fitz, who - now with his memories restored - spells it out for us. "Just like Ward. I'm just like Ward." I've never really expected the show to bring Brett back for good, and neither do I want them to, and yet, this blatant statement by Fitz, putting so many of the real Ward's actions into perspective, kinda makes me wonder if they're going to do it after all. Plus, now with Yoyo in the framework, it seems that we're not done with that world after all. Next week is certainly gonna be interesting... I'm going to guess that Ward, Mack and Trip rescue YoYo. Maybe Mack will remember her when he sees her. |
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Post by ayanami on May 11, 2017 1:38:10 GMT
Lol, it's pretty funny to me how we've all (including the author of the article in the OP) been speculating whether Jemma would at some point acknowledge the similarities between RL Ward and FW Fitz, only for it to be Fitz, who - now with his memories restored - spells it out for us. "Just like Ward. I'm just like Ward." I've never really expected the show to bring Brett back for good, and neither do I want them to, and yet, this blatant statement by Fitz, putting so many of the real Ward's actions into perspective, kinda makes me wonder if they're going to do it after all. Plus, now with Yoyo in the framework, it seems that we're not done with that world after all. Next week is certainly gonna be interesting... I'm going to guess that Ward, Mack and Trip rescue YoYo. Maybe Mack will remember her when he sees her.I really hope not and this has nothing to do with my dislike towards Mack. It would just seem totally unrealistic to me that if May can't remember Skye or Coulson and Fitz can't remember Simmons, Mack would suddenly remember Yoyo. |
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Post by aquaangel on May 11, 2017 1:45:33 GMT
I'm going to guess that Ward, Mack and Trip rescue YoYo. Maybe Mack will remember her when he sees her.I really hope not and this has nothing to do with my dislike towards Mack. It would just seem totally unrealistic to me that if May can't remember Skye or Coulson and Fitz can't remember Simmons, Mack would suddenly remember Yoyo. Well, yeah if the exit of the framework hadn't already been breached. I was just thinking since the others went through it back into the real world, maybe it made some of the programming unstable. Probably not, but Anyway... I do think Ward and/or Trip will appear next week. |
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Post by backroadjunkie on May 11, 2017 2:33:08 GMT
I'm going to guess that Ward, Mack and Trip rescue YoYo. Maybe Mack will remember her when he sees her.I really hope not and this has nothing to do with my dislike towards Mack. It would just seem totally unrealistic to me that if May can't remember Skye or Coulson and Fitz can't remember Simmons, Mack would suddenly remember Yoyo. We still don't know why Robbie is back. We got a hint it's because of Ophelia, but Ghostrider might be back to shut down the Framework. It seems this incarnation of Ghostrider was created to shut down the events in the first arc of the season, he may be back for the same reason. Anyway, the show has got a lot to cover in one more episode... |
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), badass-Burrows, still-alive-Trip, not-dust-Bakshi, etc. I'm not saying - nor have I ever - that Simmons or the rest of the team should forgive RL Ward's deeds. Like Skye, they might understand him better, but that doesn't mean he should be forgiven. My point was always just that FW Ward doesn't deserve to be blamed for what happened in the real world. That wasn't him. So I want Simmons (and some of the viewers *wink* *wink*) to get over herself and don't hold a grudge against the wrong person.
Still, I don't see you commenting on how May switching sides seems to be a common behaviour for her, too. Plus, I would call someone being willing to go undercover inside Hydra, to fight their brutal regime at massive personal risk, a very brave person who obviously puts the greater good before themselves. Some might call that "heroic" even. Like Bobbi and Jemma were back in the day. 
And let this thread get back on path.
