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Post by sigasahab on Apr 8, 2017 18:00:44 GMT
What Avengers: Infinity War (2018) could learn from the Avengers-Defenders War (1973)...Way back in 1973, The Avengers and The Defenders had a multi-issue punch-up which culminated in Avengers #118, and just one page of that comic should be studied by the powers that be at MCU. berkeleyplacecomics.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/img_0515.jpgHere, in a pretty much unprecedented interlude, we briefly see the conflict from the perspective of The Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, The Inhumans, Luke Cage, Ka-Zar, Ghost Rider, Man-Thing, Doctor Doom, Dracula, Adam Warlock and (of all people) Thanos. Imagine if the forthcoming movie took just five minutes to show Netflix’s Defenders helping out Dr Strange, or Deathlok and Ghost Rider fighting back-to-back against alien invaders. I know it won’t really happen but I can dream.
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Post by haxemon on Apr 17, 2017 14:56:58 GMT
Why would you think it won't happen? I fully expect the IW film(s) to be the one time it's important enough to do the work of bringing in every character they can. Doesn't need to be a big story point but something to show that it's "all hands on deck" at some point.
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Post by sigasahab on Apr 17, 2017 16:06:57 GMT
Why would you think it won't happen? I fully expect the IW film(s) to be the one time it's important enough to do the work of bringing in every character they can. Doesn't need to be a big story point but something to show that it's "all hands on deck" at some point. I hope you're right but there's enough circumstantial evidence of the 'feud' between Marvel Studios and Marvel Television that I'm pretty much convinced that it's real.
Here's a recent article with some telling quotes:
www.cinemablend.com/news/1646740/why-marvel-movies-and-tv-shows-wont-crossover-in-the-foreseeable-future
I don't imagine that it is impacting profits much one way or another, tbh, but aesthetically it would be nice to see that 'all hands on deck' moment (which I think the 1973 comic-book page illustrates so well).
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Post by haxemon on Apr 17, 2017 19:31:53 GMT
I hope you're right but there's enough circumstantial evidence of the 'feud' between Marvel Studios and Marvel Television that I'm pretty much convinced that it's real.
Here's a recent article with some telling quotes:
www.cinemablend.com/news/1646740/why-marvel-movies-and-tv-shows-wont-crossover-in-the-foreseeable-future
I don't imagine that it is impacting profits much one way or another, tbh, but aesthetically it would be nice to see that 'all hands on deck' moment (which I think the 1973 comic-book page illustrates so well).
I really don't put much stock in that honestly. I'm sure there could be something to it, but ultimately Marvel has 0 reason to squash those rumors entirely. If anything it helps keep fans guessing/talking. I still (perhaps naively) believe that we'll see clear proof of what everyone in the MCU is doing during that time. Even if it's just dialogue (though that would suck). There's really no reason they can't show a 10-second montage of AoS characters helping civilians to safety, Netflix characters fighting Thanosbots or whatever if he has them or simply trying to hold up crumbling buildings while people escape etc. |
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Post by ayanami on Apr 17, 2017 19:59:12 GMT
I hope you're right but there's enough circumstantial evidence of the 'feud' between Marvel Studios and Marvel Television that I'm pretty much convinced that it's real.
Here's a recent article with some telling quotes:
www.cinemablend.com/news/1646740/why-marvel-movies-and-tv-shows-wont-crossover-in-the-foreseeable-future
I don't imagine that it is impacting profits much one way or another, tbh, but aesthetically it would be nice to see that 'all hands on deck' moment (which I think the 1973 comic-book page illustrates so well).
I really don't put much stock in that honestly. I'm sure there could be something to it, but ultimately Marvel has 0 reason to squash those rumors entirely. If anything it helps keep fans guessing/talking. I still (perhaps naively) believe that we'll see clear proof of what everyone in the MCU is doing during that time. Even if it's just dialogue (though that would suck). There's really no reason they can't show a 10-second montage of AoS characters helping civilians to safety, Netflix characters fighting Thanosbots or whatever if he has them or simply trying to hold up crumbling buildings while people escape etc.Except for those scenes having to be shot (which includes extensive scheduling for all the actors, contract negotiations,...), being fitted into a movie that's already filled to the brim with all the movie characters, and then still being utterly confusing to all the people who are going to see IW, but have never watched any of the Marvel shows - which, is the vast majority! |
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Post by haxemon on Apr 17, 2017 20:10:36 GMT
Except for those scenes having to be shot (which includes extensive scheduling for all the actors, contract negotiations,...), being fitted into a movie that's already filled to the brim with all the movie characters, and then still being utterly confusing to all the people who are going to see IW, but have never watched any of the Marvel shows - which, is the vast majority! They could come up with a relatively simple way to mix those scenes into filming of the existing shows. I can't see it being cost-prohibitive. Adding these characters to an existing story point along the lines of "show the devastation across the world" doesn't crowd the film. And while sure, lots of people that will go to the film may not know all the characters, but c'mon, it's not like they're going to be baffled by seeing them in the right context. AoS is super easy since they'd just look like regular SHIELD agents to anyone who doesn't recognize them (and don't go into the Coulson stuff) and the Netflix characters could even be out of costume if they wanted to minimize any potential confusion. People may not watch all the shows but they own TVs and see the commercials. They know other shows exist. Honestly this is a great time to cross-promote them! Yes, I know the fanboy in me is driving this a bit, but I do think it's realistic to include these characters in some way. |
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Post by sigasahab on Apr 18, 2017 6:26:35 GMT
As a comicbook reader from way back, I don't understand the confusion argument. There's always a first time for seeing any new character. I don't know how it works nowadays but I doubt if I read the origin story for any of the major DC or Marvel characters before I just happened to pick a random issue up, often in the middle of an on-going story. That was part of the joy of comics for me. I think audiences will take it in their stride that there are other super-powered characters out there that they might not have seen before.
(In fact, if they did do some sort of super-crowd scene, I'd be quite happy to see random costumed characters like The Black Knight or The Swordsman that we'd never seen before in the MCU. That really would be mind-blowingly original.)
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Post by ayanami on Apr 18, 2017 20:17:18 GMT
As a comicbook reader from way back, I don't understand the confusion argument. There's always a first time for seeing any new character. I don't know how it works nowadays but I doubt if I read the origin story for any of the major DC or Marvel characters before I just happened to pick a random issue up, often in the middle of an on-going story. That was part of the joy of comics for me. I think audiences will take it in their stride that there are other super-powered characters out there that they might not have seen before. (In fact, if they did do some sort of super-crowd scene, I'd be quite happy to see random costumed characters like The Black Knight or The Swordsman that we'd never seen before in the MCU. That really would be mind-blowingly original.) Sorry, but the analogy between film and comics doesn't really work, at least not in this situation. Sure, a viewer watching "The Avengers" as their first MCU movie is kinda like a reader picking up some random comic book issue, in that they missed out on the characters' origin story. But that is the viewer's "fault", because they didn't start at the beginning, not the movie makers'. And, yes, just like in the comics, new characters get introduced in the movies all the time, like Falcon, Scarlet Witch, Vision, etc., but the proposal we're discussing here isn't that. It's not an introduction, it's just briefly showing some (for many viewers) random characters and how they react to the threat of Thanos in IW. You know that moment in a movie or TV show where the camera shows you a new character you haven't seen yet, and they do something that establishes their personality or something, and you just know they'll be important? Instead here it would be, "What, you're wondering what's up with those guys? Better should have watched all those shows the MCU has been cranking out!" You can't do that in a movie, at least not without pissing off half the audience. That'd be even worse than the weird unexplained foreshadowing stuff Batman v Superman pulled, because at least those scenes were referring to the movie's direct sequel. Not to some TV shows most of the audience in the theater won't ever watch. |
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Post by sigasahab on Apr 19, 2017 7:45:37 GMT
As a comicbook reader from way back, I don't understand the confusion argument. There's always a first time for seeing any new character. I don't know how it works nowadays but I doubt if I read the origin story for any of the major DC or Marvel characters before I just happened to pick a random issue up, often in the middle of an on-going story. That was part of the joy of comics for me. I think audiences will take it in their stride that there are other super-powered characters out there that they might not have seen before. (In fact, if they did do some sort of super-crowd scene, I'd be quite happy to see random costumed characters like The Black Knight or The Swordsman that we'd never seen before in the MCU. That really would be mind-blowingly original.) Sorry, but the analogy between film and comics doesn't really work, at least not in this situation. Sure, a viewer watching "The Avengers" as their first MCU movie is kinda like a reader picking up some random comic book issue, in that they missed out on the characters' origin story. But that is the viewer's "fault", because they didn't start at the beginning, not the movie makers'. And, yes, just like in the comics, new characters get introduced in the movies all the time, like Falcon, Scarlet Witch, Vision, etc., but the proposal we're discussing here isn't that. It's not an introduction, it's just briefly showing some (for many viewers) random characters and how they react to the threat of Thanos in IW. You know that moment in a movie or TV show where the camera shows you a new character you haven't seen yet, and they do something that establishes their personality or something, and you just know they'll be important? Instead here it would be, "What, you're wondering what's up with those guys? Better should have watched all those shows the MCU has been cranking out!" You can't do that in a movie, at least not without pissing off half the audience. That'd be even worse than the weird unexplained foreshadowing stuff Batman v Superman pulled, because at least those scenes were referring to the movie's direct sequel. Not to some TV shows most of the audience in the theater won't ever watch. No, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Movies show apparently random characters reacting to things all the time. If the NYPD police officers discussing the situation with Captain America in the first Avengers film had just come from five seasons of their own police procedural show, it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest to me. It wouldn't have pissed me off that I hadn't seen those five seasons, even if I'd vaguely recognised them from a listings magazine. If Fury on the helicarrier had been flanked by the cast of AoS, what difference would it have made to members of the audience who hadn't seen them before? Who saw the technician guy that was there, and thought to themselves 'damn, I hope he wasn't in a previous movie that I didn't see, because if he was, I'm going to be really pissed off'? Nobody, I'd have thought.
Cameo appearances can be heavily emphasised or done quietly, but the idea that they have a negative impact on large sections of the audience doesn't hold water, in my opinion.
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Post by haxemon on Apr 19, 2017 17:56:54 GMT
Sorry, but the analogy between film and comics doesn't really work, at least not in this situation. Sure, a viewer watching "The Avengers" as their first MCU movie is kinda like a reader picking up some random comic book issue, in that they missed out on the characters' origin story. But that is the viewer's "fault", because they didn't start at the beginning, not the movie makers'. And, yes, just like in the comics, new characters get introduced in the movies all the time, like Falcon, Scarlet Witch, Vision, etc., but the proposal we're discussing here isn't that. It's not an introduction, it's just briefly showing some (for many viewers) random characters and how they react to the threat of Thanos in IW. You know that moment in a movie or TV show where the camera shows you a new character you haven't seen yet, and they do something that establishes their personality or something, and you just know they'll be important? Instead here it would be, "What, you're wondering what's up with those guys? Better should have watched all those shows the MCU has been cranking out!" You can't do that in a movie, at least not without pissing off half the audience. That'd be even worse than the weird unexplained foreshadowing stuff Batman v Superman pulled, because at least those scenes were referring to the movie's direct sequel. Not to some TV shows most of the audience in the theater won't ever watch. Well they can't do it that way, but they can still include them. It just has to be done in a way that someone who has zero idea who they are isn't completely confused and also in a way that someone who is vaguely aware isn't confused either. This may be a bad example, but think of the Stan Lee cameos. They (mostly) work if you have zero idea who Stan Lee is. He's just some random citizen. They also work if you sort of know he's "somebody" but don't really know much more. And of course they work for True Believers as well. There are tons of ways they can show what the other MCU characters are up to without it "breaking" anything for casual fans. Think of Age of Ultron. If they had included some AoS characters among the helicarrier crew it wouldn't have been a problem. Some fans would be oblivious, some fans would realize they're from that TV show they don't watch but still understand the context etc. Heck in Avengers they could have shown Jessica and Luke trying to fight the Chitauri. In that case they'd have to do a couple of lines of dialogue to set it up but it could easily have been part of it (had it made sense at the time). Picture an added part when Fury, Coulson and Hill are planning what to do. They could have had Coulson ask Fury "What about these two we've been monitoring in NYC? They've demonstrated super-human strength, heck he seems indestructible." Then Fury says "I'm not sure they're the right recruits to hunt down Loki". Show a file photo of the two of them or something. Then when they're shown later it fits. Anyway, I'm no Hollywood writer, but I think there are lots of ways they *could* include other MCU characters without the risks you mention. And I think IW is the time where it's worth doing. |
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