|
|
Post by beren44 on Apr 5, 2017 12:02:33 GMT
No spoiler tags follow, so get outta here right now if you haven't seen the episode!
The first clipping he views mentions Felix Blake getting a parade. Is there a chance we will see him return for a Framework appearance? That would be cool!
The next clipping is VERY interesting. Headline:
Winslow Doctor Arrested for Subversion.
<Cal, if you remember, got the TAHITI treatment and came back as veterinarian Dr. Winslow>
With handwritten notes by Coulson:
WINSLOW?
What is his name?
How can a doctor do this?
Transformation?
Oh, I would be just overjoyed if we got to see Kyle MacLachlan once again, on the show!
|
|
|
|
Post by backroadjunkie on Apr 5, 2017 13:43:37 GMT
Why would some of those items even exist in the Framework? Things like Tahiti/"It's a magical place" could only subvert what Aida's trying to accomplish, since it never happened to Coulson in the Framework's reality.
And if Ward as a good guy can exist, then anyone from the past shows could exist.
|
|
|
|
Post by polgara on Apr 5, 2017 13:50:45 GMT
ember who Wislow was. Thanks for clearing that up. It would be great if Kyl No spoiler tags follow, so get outta here right now if you haven't seen the episode! The first clipping he views mentions Felix Blake getting a parade. Is there a chance we will see him return for a Framework appearance? That would be cool! The next clipping is VERY interesting. Headline:
Winslow Doctor Arrested for Subversion. <Cal, if you remember, got the TAHITI treatment and came back as veterinarian Dr. Winslow> With handwritten notes by Coulson: WINSLOW? What is his name? How can a doctor do this? Transformation? Oh, I would be just overjoyed if we got to see Kyle MacLachlan once again, on the show! I couldn't remember who Dr. Winslow was. Thanks for clearing that up. It would be great if we got to see Kyle McLachlan again. |
|
|
|
Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Apr 5, 2017 16:13:22 GMT
Why would some of those items even exist in the Framework? Things like Tahiti/"It's a magical place" could only subvert what Aida's trying to accomplish, since it never happened to Coulson in the Framework's reality. And if Ward as a good guy can exist, then anyone from the past shows could exist. There's no way AIDA could prevent TAHITI side effects in Coulson. It's just like in season one when Coulson only realized that the word was a trigger for him to say 'It's a Magical Place'. He has the subconscious knowledge that *something* isn't right. And obviously this Coulson is more consciously aware of TAHITI at a higher degree because he has to write the trigger response down, and that isn't something he did before until he knew everything that happened at the Guest House. My guess is that all this is a small part of Coulson deep down remembering that none of this real. |
|
|
|
Post by beren44 on Apr 5, 2017 18:30:08 GMT
Why would some of those items even exist in the Framework? Things like Tahiti/"It's a magical place" could only subvert what Aida's trying to accomplish, since it never happened to Coulson in the Framework's reality. And if Ward as a good guy can exist, then anyone from the past shows could exist. There's no way AIDA could prevent TAHITI side effects in Coulson. It's just like in season one when Coulson only realized that the word was a trigger for him to say 'It's a Magical Place'. He has the subconscious knowledge that *something* isn't right. And obviously this Coulson is more consciously aware of TAHITI at a higher degree because he has to write the trigger response down, and that isn't something he did before until he knew everything that happened at the Guest House. My guess is that all this is a small part of Coulson deep down remembering that none of this real. and caseyrook AKA Mechelle , I think you both have valid points/speculations. I kind of agree that it was surprising that Tahiti even showed up in the framework, and I kind of agree that it could be a subliminal part of real-Coulson's subconscious, that could not be completely overwritten, even by Aida. This brings to mind a couple of issues. As far as I am aware, we don't know how long Hydra has been in charge in the framework. Just since the Cambridge incident is logical, yes, but when did that happen in the grand scheme? After Bahrain, obviously, but that leads to another unknown. (possibly some of the stuff was answered in the movies, I haven't seen them all) In the real world, Did Bahrain happen before or after events in the Battle of New York? I don't recall them telling us exactly when Bahrain happened, but it seems reasonable that it occurred BEFORE The Avengers. {EDIT: it must have, because Coulson was still a regular agent. But I am leaving the rest of my thoughts anyway} If however, it occurred afterward, there is always a 3rd possibility, that even in the Framework, Coulson got killed by the scepter, went through TAHITI, and his memory re-programmed as a life-long teacher, instead of still being a Shield agent. Who knows, in this crazy world of the Framework! |
|
|
|
Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Apr 5, 2017 19:45:23 GMT
beren44 said,
TAHITI resonating through the FW for Coulson makes total sense to me for many reasons:
1. The real Phil Coulson was psychologically scarred from everything about TAHITI. So much so that even last season when the story moved past all aspects of it, it was from Ros's knowledge of his death and TAHITI that he was able to figure out that she was somehow connected to HYDRA.
2. Even when Coulson thought that Tahiti was only the place where SHIELD sent Coulson to recover, and even before he caught onto the trigger response, he knew something was up. He didn't catch onto the response until 'The Hub' but in episodes before that we saw him admit to May that he didn't feel 'right'. This shows that it wasn't purely the acknowledgement of the trigger response that tipped him off in season one.
3. What was the thing about TAHITI that bothered Coulson the most? They (SHIELD) changed his memories. That's exactly what's going on in the FW.
3a. From a writerly standpoint, having FWCoulson be haunted by any aspect of TAHITI is a nice way of showing the parallels between the real world and the FW.
S2E17 Melinda had the flashbacks from Bahrain dated 7 years ago from that day. That episode came out in 2015 (has it really been that long?) meaning the incident in Bahrain took place in 2008 regardless of the 'timeline' that we're talking about.
Just in case you don't remember, The Battle of New York took place in 2012.
Unless someone has the ability to freeze frame and enhance like a Hollywood paparazzi, we have no real 'clue' as to when the Cambridge Incident happened, nor of when HYDRA officially took over. My guess would be during or shortly after the events of TWS.
I also think that in the Framework, Coulson has been a teacher (and part time lifeguard over the summers) for all of his 'known' life, just because
1) It would be convoluted for this Phil to also be a memory wiped TAHITI patient.
2) May and Fitz acted like Coulson was just another regular joe when May reported to Fitz about Simmons antics. There was no hint of recognition from either of them and if FWCoulson had been an agent (of HYDRA or SHIELD) I feel like they should have recognized him right away.
3) A LOT of this 'what if' alternate history hinges on Coulson not being there.
With all this timeline talk, I feel like i should be entering in a debate about the merits of the Kelvin universe. Also, I have a headache...
|
|
|
|
Post by ayanami on Apr 5, 2017 20:16:39 GMT
beren44 said, TAHITI resonating through the FW for Coulson makes total sense to me for many reasons: 1. The real Phil Coulson was psychologically scarred from everything about TAHITI. So much so that even last season when the story moved past all aspects of it, it was from Ros's knowledge of his death and TAHITI that he was able to figure out that she was somehow connected to HYDRA.
2. Even when Coulson thought that Tahiti was only the place where SHIELD sent Coulson to recover, and even before he caught onto the trigger response, he knew something was up. He didn't catch onto the response until 'The Hub' but in episodes before that we saw him admit to May that he didn't feel 'right'. This shows that it wasn't purely the acknowledgement of the trigger response that tipped him off in season one.
3. What was the thing about TAHITI that bothered Coulson the most? They (SHIELD) changed his memories. That's exactly what's going on in the FW.
3a. From a writerly standpoint, having FWCoulson be haunted by any aspect of TAHITI is a nice way of showing the parallels between the real world and the FW.
S2E17 Melinda had the flashbacks from Bahrain dated 7 years ago from that day. That episode came out in 2015 (has it really been that long?) meaning the incident in Bahrain took place in 2008 regardless of the 'timeline' that we're talking about. Just in case you don't remember, The Battle of New York took place in 2012. Unless someone has the ability to freeze frame and enhance like a Hollywood paparazzi, we have no real 'clue' as to when the Cambridge Incident happened, nor of when HYDRA officially took over. My guess would be during or shortly after the events of TWS. I also think that in the Framework, Coulson has been a teacher (and part time lifeguard over the summers) for all of his 'known' life, just because 1) It would be convoluted for this Phil to also be a memory wiped TAHITI patient.
2) May and Fitz acted like Coulson was just another regular joe when May reported to Fitz about Simmons antics. There was no hint of recognition from either of them and if FWCoulson had been an agent (of HYDRA or SHIELD) I feel like they should have recognized him right away.
3) A LOT of this 'what if' alternate history hinges on Coulson not being there. With all this timeline talk, I feel like i should be entering in a debate about the merits of the Kelvin universe. Also, I have a headache... Somehow I have the feeling that neither the events of The Winter Soldier nor The Avengers ever happened. Hydra took control after the Cambridge Incident, which, I would guess, didn't happen long after Bahrain. Without Coulson in Shield, Cap was probably never found; Hydra might have dealt with the tesseract differently, which means no invasion of Loki and the chitauri, and in turn no appearance of Thor. Toni Stark is either still an arms dealer (remember IM1 was in 2008; what if the Cambridge Incident was before that? He might be loyal to Hydra!) or was most likely killed as a potential threat to Hydra. Natasha is comfortable with everything, so I wager she fell in line and Clint is either following orders as well, or retired after the regime change. |
|
|
|
Post by ayanami on Apr 5, 2017 20:17:31 GMT
No spoiler tags follow, so get outta here right now if you haven't seen the episode! The first clipping he views mentions Felix Blake getting a parade. Is there a chance we will see him return for a Framework appearance? That would be cool! The next clipping is VERY interesting. Headline:
Winslow Doctor Arrested for Subversion. <Cal, if you remember, got the TAHITI treatment and came back as veterinarian Dr. Winslow> With handwritten notes by Coulson: WINSLOW? What is his name? How can a doctor do this? Transformation? Oh, I would be just overjoyed if we got to see Kyle MacLachlan once again, on the show! I also found it hilarious that Bakshi was getting a lifetime achievement award! Do people really get those in their thirties??  |
|
|
|
Post by beren44 on Apr 5, 2017 20:29:06 GMT
beren44 said, TAHITI resonating through the FW for Coulson makes total sense to me for many reasons: 1. The real Phil Coulson was psychologically scarred from everything about TAHITI. So much so that even last season when the story moved past all aspects of it, it was from Ros's knowledge of his death and TAHITI that he was able to figure out that she was somehow connected to HYDRA.
2. Even when Coulson thought that Tahiti was only the place where SHIELD sent Coulson to recover, and even before he caught onto the trigger response, he knew something was up. He didn't catch onto the response until 'The Hub' but in episodes before that we saw him admit to May that he didn't feel 'right'. This shows that it wasn't purely the acknowledgement of the trigger response that tipped him off in season one.
3. What was the thing about TAHITI that bothered Coulson the most? They (SHIELD) changed his memories. That's exactly what's going on in the FW.
3a. From a writerly standpoint, having FWCoulson be haunted by any aspect of TAHITI is a nice way of showing the parallels between the real world and the FW.
Beren: *ALL OF THE ABOVE * I agree with...
S2E17 Melinda had the flashbacks from Bahrain dated 7 years ago from that day. That episode came out in 2015 (has it really been that long?) meaning the incident in Bahrain took place in 2008 regardless of the 'timeline' that we're talking about. Beren: That was what I didn't recall, without reviewing a lot of stuffJust in case you don't remember, The Battle of New York took place in 2012. Unless someone has the ability to freeze frame and enhance like a Hollywood paparazzi, we have no real 'clue' as to when the Cambridge Incident happened, nor of when HYDRA officially took over. My guess would be during or shortly after the events of TWS. I also think that in the Framework, Coulson has been a teacher (and part time lifeguard over the summers) for all of his 'known' life, just because 1) It would be convoluted for this Phil to also be a memory wiped TAHITI patient.
Beren: EXACTLY my point! That is the kind of stuff the writers here love to do. For example, Ward in his new role. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, as The Who so eloquently put it.
2) May and Fitz acted like Coulson was just another regular joe when May reported to Fitz about Simmons antics. There was no hint of recognition from either of them and if FWCoulson had been an agent (of HYDRA or SHIELD) I feel like they should have recognized him right away.
Beren: whose to say if they would have had any knowledge of him, given we don't know the history in the framework.
3) A LOT of this 'what if' alternate history hinges on Coulson not being there. With all this timeline talk, I feel like i should be entering in a debate about the merits of the Kelvin universe. Also, I have a headache...Beren: Take a break, and go have a brew with Jemma. I'm sure she's ready for one by now!  |
|
|
|
Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Apr 5, 2017 21:02:43 GMT
beren44 said, TAHITI resonating through the FW for Coulson makes total sense to me for many reasons: 1. The real Phil Coulson was psychologically scarred from everything about TAHITI. So much so that even last season when the story moved past all aspects of it, it was from Ros's knowledge of his death and TAHITI that he was able to figure out that she was somehow connected to HYDRA.
2. Even when Coulson thought that Tahiti was only the place where SHIELD sent Coulson to recover, and even before he caught onto the trigger response, he knew something was up. He didn't catch onto the response until 'The Hub' but in episodes before that we saw him admit to May that he didn't feel 'right'. This shows that it wasn't purely the acknowledgement of the trigger response that tipped him off in season one.
3. What was the thing about TAHITI that bothered Coulson the most? They (SHIELD) changed his memories. That's exactly what's going on in the FW.
3a. From a writerly standpoint, having FWCoulson be haunted by any aspect of TAHITI is a nice way of showing the parallels between the real world and the FW.
S2E17 Melinda had the flashbacks from Bahrain dated 7 years ago from that day. That episode came out in 2015 (has it really been that long?) meaning the incident in Bahrain took place in 2008 regardless of the 'timeline' that we're talking about. Just in case you don't remember, The Battle of New York took place in 2012. Unless someone has the ability to freeze frame and enhance like a Hollywood paparazzi, we have no real 'clue' as to when the Cambridge Incident happened, nor of when HYDRA officially took over. My guess would be during or shortly after the events of TWS. I also think that in the Framework, Coulson has been a teacher (and part time lifeguard over the summers) for all of his 'known' life, just because 1) It would be convoluted for this Phil to also be a memory wiped TAHITI patient.
2) May and Fitz acted like Coulson was just another regular joe when May reported to Fitz about Simmons antics. There was no hint of recognition from either of them and if FWCoulson had been an agent (of HYDRA or SHIELD) I feel like they should have recognized him right away.
3) A LOT of this 'what if' alternate history hinges on Coulson not being there. With all this timeline talk, I feel like i should be entering in a debate about the merits of the Kelvin universe. Also, I have a headache... Somehow I have the feeling that neither the events of The Winter Soldier nor The Avengers ever happened. Hydra took control after the Cambridge Incident, which, I would guess, didn't happen long after Bahrain. Without Coulson in Shield, Cap was probably never found; Hydra might have dealt with the tesseract differently, which means no invasion of Loki and the chitauri, and in turn no appearance of Thor. Toni Stark is either still an arms dealer (remember IM1 was in 2008; what if the Cambridge Incident was before that? He might be loyal to Hydra!) or was most likely killed as a potential threat to Hydra. Natasha is comfortable with everything, so I wager she fell in line and Clint is either following orders as well, or retired after the regime change. I hate to be the kind of fan that would say this but, are we supposed to take the comic Fury's Big Week as canon? If so, then yeah it's safe to say that the fanboy that Coulson is, is responsible for the de-Capsicling of Rogers. If we're going by canon which says that canon is only what we see on screen, then there's nothing to suggest that Phil had anything to do with Rogers being found. Yeah, Phil was being all creepy stalkery after he was found, but we don't have a clue about whether Phil was involved before that. (Probably not, he had diva billionaires to babysit and Asgardians to deal with.) I wouldn't be surprised at all if Cap is never found, Tony never escaped the cave because there was no Yinson, Thor's hammer was thrown to Earth but Thor was never able to wield it again, Hulk (and Abomination) are used by HYDRA as secret weapons of mass destruction, and Natasha and Barton are either dead or HYDRA agents (if they ever existed in the first place). |
|
|
|
Post by ayanami on Apr 5, 2017 21:13:48 GMT
Somehow I have the feeling that neither the events of The Winter Soldier nor The Avengers ever happened. Hydra took control after the Cambridge Incident, which, I would guess, didn't happen long after Bahrain. Without Coulson in Shield, Cap was probably never found; Hydra might have dealt with the tesseract differently, which means no invasion of Loki and the chitauri, and in turn no appearance of Thor. Toni Stark is either still an arms dealer (remember IM1 was in 2008; what if the Cambridge Incident was before that? He might be loyal to Hydra!) or was most likely killed as a potential threat to Hydra. Natasha is comfortable with everything, so I wager she fell in line and Clint is either following orders as well, or retired after the regime change. I hate to be the kind of fan that would say this but, are we supposed to take the comic Fury's Big Week as canon? If so, then yeah it's safe to say that the fanboy that Coulson is, is responsible for the de-Capsicling of Rogers. If we're going by canon which says that canon is only what we see on screen, then there's nothing to suggest that Phil had anything to do with Rogers being found. Yeah, Phil was being all creepy stalkery after he was found, but we don't have a clue about whether Phil was involved before that. (Probably not, he had diva billionaires to babysit and Asgardians to deal with.) I wouldn't be surprised at all if Cap is never found, Tony never escaped the cave because there was no Yinson, Thor's hammer was thrown to Earth but Thor was never able to wield it again, Hulk (and Abomination) are used by HYDRA as secret weapons of mass destruction, and Natasha and Barton are either dead or HYDRA agents (if they ever existed in the first place). I've never actually read the comic myself, so I' mostly going by what others have said on this. Concerning the actual on-screen canon, though, Coulson did say that he was watching him sleep and I somehow doubt that Fury would have let any agents not involved in Cap's rescue get through to him. So for me that means Coulson had a hand in that mission somehow. I've said this before, but it still annoys me that Coulson wasn't in The First Avenger in the first place! One of the biggest oversights in MCU history! |
|
|
|
Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Apr 5, 2017 21:24:43 GMT
I hate to be the kind of fan that would say this but, are we supposed to take the comic Fury's Big Week as canon? If so, then yeah it's safe to say that the fanboy that Coulson is, is responsible for the de-Capsicling of Rogers. If we're going by canon which says that canon is only what we see on screen, then there's nothing to suggest that Phil had anything to do with Rogers being found. Yeah, Phil was being all creepy stalkery after he was found, but we don't have a clue about whether Phil was involved before that. (Probably not, he had diva billionaires to babysit and Asgardians to deal with.) I wouldn't be surprised at all if Cap is never found, Tony never escaped the cave because there was no Yinson, Thor's hammer was thrown to Earth but Thor was never able to wield it again, Hulk (and Abomination) are used by HYDRA as secret weapons of mass destruction, and Natasha and Barton are either dead or HYDRA agents (if they ever existed in the first place). I've never actually read the comic myself, so I' mostly going by what others have said on this. Concerning the actual on-screen canon, though, Coulson did say that he was watching him sleep and I somehow doubt that Fury would have let any agents not involved in Cap's rescue get through to him. So for me that means Coulson had a hand in that mission somehow. I've said this before, but it still annoys me that Coulson wasn't in The First Avenger in the first place! One of the biggest oversights in MCU history! It has been a long while since I read Fury's Big Week, but if I remember right, Coulson actually led the team that found Cap in that comic. In case you weren't sure or didn't know, that comic basically connects Iron Man 2, Thor, The Incredible Hulk, and the beginning of First Avenger all together and fills in the blanks that happened between the movies, and behind the scenes of them. If you're really into the MCU I highly recommend reading it as it's also a standalone. I got my copy off of Amazon for less than 10 dollars if memory serves. |
|
|
|
Post by Hari Seldon on Apr 8, 2017 4:31:10 GMT
I also found it hilarious that Bakshi was getting a lifetime achievement award! Do people really get those in their thirties?? I don't want to get political here, but think of it like Obama getting the Nobel Peace Prize without actually doing anything because of "what he was considered to have the potential to do". They gave Bakshi an award for what he might do in his lifetime.  |
|
|
|
Post by beren44 on Apr 8, 2017 13:52:52 GMT
I also found it hilarious that Bakshi was getting a lifetime achievement award! Do people really get those in their thirties?? I don't want to get political here, but think of it like Obama getting the Nobel Peace Prize without actually doing anything because of "what he was considered to have the potential to do". They gave Bakshi an award for what he might do in his lifetime. I'm going to steer this conversation back onto the road and say that, my gut feeling is they were just paying tribute to past events on the show, but the eternal optimist in me is still looking forward to seeing Daisy's dad again! Definitely would not mind seeing Dichen Lachman (mom) again, either! Fingers crossed x x |
|
