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Post by haxemon on Nov 11, 2024 15:50:29 GMT
This will contain spoilers of course, but using this platform to vent a little. I've seen several people question how Lilia could "see" that Rio was going to throw the kitchen sink at Agatha and even calling it a plot hole. This is bases, I assume, on people assuming Lilia's sole power was that she saw time out of order compared to us.
Lilia was a divination witch first and foremost. Yes, her perception of her own time was related to that but she says a few things very clearly throughout the series.
1. She tells Jen that the time skips/gaps happened when she was a girl and only recently started again. She says she ignored them and they stopped.
2. She comments about being chased out of every town for accurately predicting their doom.
So clearly, to me at least, she lived for HUNDREDS of years divining the future for others without the benefit of any time skips through her own life. She said she eventually stopped doing real divination because people couldn't handle it and she found it easier to just be a fraud. It's also very unlikely that she would be considered such a powerful divination witch if she was limited only to what she saw in her time skips. Doing a very quick divination for Agatha, and for something that would happen quite soon and involve Rio whom Lilia had been around a lot recently, isn't odd at all really.
I can see how folks might assume the time skipping reveal was meant to explain her powers completely - that's often what comic book shows/movies do - but it was clear to me all through this series that Lilia was a genuine divination witch in addition to being unstuck in time herself.
Anyway, gotta love this community! Let me know if anyone sees this issue differently or has aspects of the show that I have overlooked.
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Post by Jemma Simmons on Nov 11, 2024 17:01:24 GMT
This will contain spoilers of course, but using this platform to vent a little. I've seen several people question how Lilia could "see" that Rio was going to throw the kitchen sink at Agatha and even calling it a plot hole. This is bases, I assume, on people assuming Lilia's sole power was that she saw time out of order compared to us. Lilia was a divination witch first and foremost. Yes, her perception of her own time was related to that but she says a few things very clearly throughout the series. 1. She tells Jen that the time skips/gaps happened when she was a girl and only recently started again. She says she ignored them and they stopped. 2. She comments about being chased out of every town for accurately predicting their doom. So clearly, to me at least, she lived for HUNDREDS of years divining the future for others without the benefit of any time skips through her own life. She said she eventually stopped doing real divination because people couldn't handle it and she found it easier to just be a fraud. It's also very unlikely that she would be considered such a powerful divination witch if she was limited only to what she saw in her time skips. Doing a very quick divination for Agatha, and for something that would happen quite soon and involve Rio whom Lilia had been around a lot recently, isn't odd at all really. I can see how folks might assume the time skipping reveal was meant to explain her powers completely - that's often what comic book shows/movies do - but it was clear to me all through this series that Lilia was a genuine divination witch in addition to being unstuck in time herself. Anyway, gotta love this community! Let me know if anyone sees this issue differently or has aspects of the show that I have overlooked. I think your interpretation here is pretty spot on. I also agree that the time skipping wasn't meant to explain her powers completely. The other part of divination is being able to accurately interpret what you see. While the time jumps may have possibly helped a bit (i.e. "Oh I got a glimpse of this, so now *THAT* makes sense") these were two different things. Also, I am rewatching the series and those little built in clues are even more awesome to see the second time around! As an aside, I wonder exactly how much of this storyline was figured out while WandaVision was in production and how much the actors knew. Looking back on the plotline there, Agatha's actions (and the way Kathryn Hahn plays her) make even more sense given the backstory here. |
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Post by haxemon on Nov 11, 2024 17:12:26 GMT
I think your interpretation here is pretty spot on. I also agree that the time skipping wasn't meant to explain her powers completely. The other part of divination is being able to accurately interpret what you see. While the time jumps may have possibly helped a bit (i.e. "Oh I got a glimpse of this, so now *THAT* makes sense") these were two different things. Also, I am rewatching the series and those little built in clues are even more awesome to see the second time around! As an aside, I wonder exactly how much of this storyline was figured out while WandaVision was in production and how much the actors knew. Looking back on the plotline there, Agatha's actions (and the way Kathryn Hahn plays her) make even more sense given the backstory here. Yes I did a rewatch of episodes 1-7 after episode 7 for that very reason. It's amazing how Lilia's arc was put together. And after seeing episode 9 a lot of Agatha's reactions have new meaning as well. Some have theorized that "something changed" after episode 1 where they couldn't continue the Darkhold storyline, but I don't think that's the case. I'd love to see more there of course, but I think that first episode was meant more to explain why Wanda's spell on Agatha was ready to be broken. Between Wanda dying, Darkholds being destroyed and of course Billy using his mom's magic, that all aligned to allow the spell to be broken at last. Another topic I've seen some debate on is whether Agatha traded Nicky for the Darkhold or not. I'm less certain of this theory, but what if she did but in advance? i.e., when she was young, just before her trial shown in WandaVision, she may have made a deal for the Darkhold where she promised her first born in exchange. That could explain why she waited so long to have a child - maybe she felt she could get away with it. Or maybe her relationship with Death made her think she wouldn't collect etc. Depending on the terms of acquiring the Darkhold, they could easily have been related to losing Nicky. The way Agatha reacted when she saw Death seemed (to me) like it was more than just "oh, Death is here which must mean the baby won't survive childbirth". It seemed more like she knew she was trying to cheat on the deal and got caught. |
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Post by Jemma Simmons on Nov 11, 2024 17:29:27 GMT
I think your interpretation here is pretty spot on. I also agree that the time skipping wasn't meant to explain her powers completely. The other part of divination is being able to accurately interpret what you see. While the time jumps may have possibly helped a bit (i.e. "Oh I got a glimpse of this, so now *THAT* makes sense") these were two different things. Also, I am rewatching the series and those little built in clues are even more awesome to see the second time around! As an aside, I wonder exactly how much of this storyline was figured out while WandaVision was in production and how much the actors knew. Looking back on the plotline there, Agatha's actions (and the way Kathryn Hahn plays her) make even more sense given the backstory here. Yes I did a rewatch of episodes 1-7 after episode 7 for that very reason. It's amazing how Lilia's arc was put together. And after seeing episode 9 a lot of Agatha's reactions have new meaning as well. Some have theorized that "something changed" after episode 1 where they couldn't continue the Darkhold storyline, but I don't think that's the case. I'd love to see more there of course, but I think that first episode was meant more to explain why Wanda's spell on Agatha was ready to be broken. Between Wanda dying, Darkholds being destroyed and of course Billy using his mom's magic, that all aligned to allow the spell to be broken at last. Another topic I've seen some debate on is whether Agatha traded Nicky for the Darkhold or not. I'm less certain of this theory, but what if she did but in advance? i.e., when she was young, just before her trial shown in WandaVision, she may have made a deal for the Darkhold where she promised her first born in exchange. That could explain why she waited so long to have a child - maybe she felt she could get away with it. Or maybe her relationship with Death made her think she wouldn't collect etc. Depending on the terms of acquiring the Darkhold, they could easily have been related to losing Nicky. The way Agatha reacted when she saw Death seemed (to me) like it was more than just "oh, Death is here which must mean the baby won't survive childbirth". It seemed more like she knew she was trying to cheat on the deal and got caught. You know, I've seen that theory about Nicky floating around too. I suppose it's possible that she did make that trade for the Darkhold years ago, but I'm not so sure given her conversation with Rio about that, and later when she helps Billy figure out what was going on with Tommy. Rio flat out asks her why she lets people believe that she traded her son for the Darkhold and she just says essentially that the truth was just too awful. And later, when Billy asks if he's killing the other boy so that his brother can live, she says, "Sometimes boys die." It seems to me like it's more likely that it was just easier to let people believe that than come to terms with the fact that, despite being a powerful Witch, there was just nothing she could do to protect Nicky. I do agree though that her reaction when Rio showed up initially to collect Nicky was a bit more like she realized she was trying to cheat death and got caught, though. |
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Post by haxemon on Nov 11, 2024 18:36:19 GMT
You know, I've seen that theory about Nicky floating around too. I suppose it's possible that she did make that trade for the Darkhold years ago, but I'm not so sure given her conversation with Rio about that, and later when she helps Billy figure out what was going on with Tommy. Rio flat out asks her why she lets people believe that she traded her son for the Darkhold and she just says essentially that the truth was just too awful. And later, when Billy asks if he's killing the other boy so that his brother can live, she says, "Sometimes boys die." It seems to me like it's more likely that it was just easier to let people believe that than come to terms with the fact that, despite being a powerful Witch, there was just nothing she could do to protect Nicky. I do agree though that her reaction when Rio showed up initially to collect Nicky was a bit more like she realized she was trying to cheat death and got caught, though. Yeah the "the truth is too awful" quote does seem to indicate something else going on there. Good point. I wonder if they'll get back to it at any point. |
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Post by Hari Seldon on Nov 13, 2024 4:21:34 GMT
Another theory I've seen on Nicky is that Rio is the father, which is both the reason for him being stillborn and for Death granting Agatha those years with him. Yes, I know the immediate response is they're both female, but if Rio really is Death, then who knows what she's packing (and Aubrey Plaza would absolutely love that idea). This does fit with the scene where right before he dies he tells the witch offering him a meal that "my mother needs me home" and runs out of the building even though Agatha is inside.
As for Lilia's powers, there were similar problems pointed out with the projections Dr. Strange made with the time stone.
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Post by haxemon on Nov 13, 2024 15:20:26 GMT
Another theory I've seen on Nicky is that Rio is the father, which is both the reason for him being stillborn and for Death granting Agatha those years with him. Yes, I know the immediate response is they're both female, but if Rio really is Death, then who knows what she's packing (and Aubrey Plaza would absolutely love that idea). This does fit with the scene where right before he dies he tells the witch offering him a meal that "my mother needs me home" and runs out of the building even though Agatha is inside.
As for Lilia's powers, there were similar problems pointed out with the projections Dr. Strange made with the time stone.
Yeah I heard theories they avoided/dropped that since Star Wars did it. I'm not sure I buy the idea that Death's baby would be stillborn though as they made it clear in this series at least that Death was more of a force of the cycle between death and new life. As for Strange and the time stone, yeah I think some people confused that with the Ancient One's ability to see the future but only up to her own death. The time stone should theoretically allow someone to see billions of years into the future (or at least as far ahead as the time stone will exist or something). |
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I'll be spending next weekend with some family I like and trying to avoid any remotely controversial conversations with others that I spend the rest of the year avoiding 