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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Feb 25, 2017 19:06:04 GMT
(Spoilers)
Did anyone realize that we did not see Mace in the Framework's "Where Are They Now?" montage?
We know he's in there.
We see him hooked up with the others.
I think he's actually 'Captain America' in the Framework. Makes sense if Steve Rogers failed to shop HYDRA.
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Post by koos on Feb 25, 2017 20:22:09 GMT
YEah, I also think he is Captain Hydra in the framework. I think we didn't get to see him in the framework because he is not one of the main chars.
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Post by NorrinRaddOfZennla on Feb 25, 2017 20:26:26 GMT
If HYDRA won during WWII maybe Steve Rogers never became Captain America? There just are certain real world events that I would think that the Darkhold could not anticipate that would have an effect on certain people that even if you presented them would cause the person to become Self-Aware.
Coulson's bromance with Captain America was real. How do you change that memory in Phil's head and not have a really bad outcome?
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Post by ayanami on Feb 25, 2017 21:41:38 GMT
If HYDRA won during WWII maybe Steve Rogers never became Captain America? There just are certain real world events that I would think that the Darkhold could not anticipate that would have an effect on certain people that even if you presented them would cause the person to become Self-Aware. Coulson's bromance with Captain America was real. How do you change that memory in Phil's head and not have a really bad outcome?But it doesn't really matter here is Steve ever became Cap or not, right? If Coulson never joined Shield, they never met, end of story. |
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Post by NorrinRaddOfZennla on Feb 25, 2017 22:59:38 GMT
If HYDRA won during WWII maybe Steve Rogers never became Captain America? There just are certain real world events that I would think that the Darkhold could not anticipate that would have an effect on certain people that even if you presented them would cause the person to become Self-Aware. Coulson's bromance with Captain America was real. How do you change that memory in Phil's head and not have a really bad outcome?But it doesn't really matter here is Steve ever became Cap or not, right? If Coulson never joined Shield, they never met, end of story. |
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Post by NorrinRaddOfZennla on Feb 25, 2017 23:05:58 GMT
I was under the impression that Coulson' Bromance and Man-Crush started well before SHIELD. Phil collected vintage things. I don't think Agent Coulson holds Cap in high regard because of SHIELD but because of WWII.
But you might be suggesting that Phil knew nothing about Cap prior to him joining SHIELD and that is a head scratcher for me. Cap wasn't a secret. He had a Smithsonian exhibit.
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Post by ayanami on Feb 25, 2017 23:24:11 GMT
I was under the impression that Coulson' Bromance and Man-Crush started well before SHIELD. Phil collected vintage things. I don't think Agent Coulson holds Cap in high regard because of SHIELD but because of WWII. But you might be suggesting that Phil knew nothing about Cap prior to him joining SHIELD and that is a head scratcher for me. Cap wasn't a secret. He had a Smithsonian exhibit. 'Bromance' - like friendship - is a two-way thing, though. You're right that it is entirely possible that Coulson knew about and admired Steve long before Shield, but their personal interactions would obviously not have happened had Coulson become a teacher instead of a secret agent. I thought that's what you were alluding to in your earlier post; if not, then I misunderstood. Of course he could still have a huge man-crush on Cap without ever actually having met him in person. |
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Post by NorrinRaddOfZennla on Feb 26, 2017 4:14:06 GMT
I was under the impression that Coulson' Bromance and Man-Crush started well before SHIELD. Phil collected vintage things. I don't think Agent Coulson holds Cap in high regard because of SHIELD but because of WWII. But you might be suggesting that Phil knew nothing about Cap prior to him joining SHIELD and that is a head scratcher for me. Cap wasn't a secret. He had a Smithsonian exhibit. 'Bromance' - like friendship - is a two-way thing, though. You're right that it is entirely possible that Coulson knew about and admired Steve long before Shield, but their personal interactions would obviously not have happened had Coulson become a teacher instead of a secret agent. I thought that's what you were alluding to in your earlier post; if not, then I misunderstood. Of course he could still have a huge man-crush on Cap without ever actually having met him in person. I should have said Unrequited "Bromance" but yes a severe Man-Crush on Steve Rogers. You would think that Captain Rogers' affect on Phil would be stronger than Colonel Fury but the way AoS goes the answer appears to be a resounding no. Historically what Steve meant to Coulson would be a problem even if Coulson doesn't join SHIELD. But it appears that within the Framework Fury must be dead and the two never met. I do want Jeffrey mace to have a redemption arc within the framework instead of the way the SHIELD story line basically turned him to a bureaucratic puppet and an empty suit. For me his entire storyline appeared to be more about solidifying the ascension of Daisy Johnson to the position of Director by making the new Director incompetent and impotent as a leader. Well, mission accomplished Director Mace. Daisy will be director but it need not have be at the expense of another character.  Just my two-cents. |
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Post by terminator22 on Feb 26, 2017 16:48:28 GMT
I do want Jeffrey mace to have a redemption arc within the framework instead of the way the SHIELD story line basically turned him to a bureaucratic puppet and an empty suit. For me his entire storyline appeared to be more about solidifying the ascension of Daisy Johnson to the position of Director by making the new Director incompetent and impotent as a leader. Well, mission accomplished Director Mace. Daisy will be director but it need not have be at the expense of another character. Just my two-cents. Agreed, Mace was just a place holder for Daisy. Since Aida is removing regrets, I bet Mace will be a real powered person in the framework. I also bet he will sacrifice himself to get everyone else out. This will (finally) clear the path for Daisy to take the throne. |
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Post by ayanami on Feb 26, 2017 16:55:20 GMT
I do want Jeffrey mace to have a redemption arc within the framework instead of the way the SHIELD story line basically turned him to a bureaucratic puppet and an empty suit. For me his entire storyline appeared to be more about solidifying the ascension of Daisy Johnson to the position of Director by making the new Director incompetent and impotent as a leader. Well, mission accomplished Director Mace. Daisy will be director but it need not have be at the expense of another character. Just my two-cents. Agreed, Mace was just a place holder for Daisy. Since Aida is removing regrets, I bet Mace will be a real powered person in the framework. I also bet he will sacrifice himself to get everyone else out. This will (finally) clear the path for Daisy to take the throne. I don't think Skye is anywhere near ready to lead Shield and I doubt that's where this show is headed, at least not in the short run. If we get an "where they go from here" montage in the final episode, we might see her becoming director eventually, but I don't think it would happen anytime soon. |
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Post by koos on Feb 26, 2017 17:15:42 GMT
Agreed, Mace was just a place holder for Daisy. Since Aida is removing regrets, I bet Mace will be a real powered person in the framework. I also bet he will sacrifice himself to get everyone else out. This will (finally) clear the path for Daisy to take the throne. I don't think Skye is anywhere near ready to lead Shield and I doubt that's where this show is headed, at least not in the short run. If we get an "where they go from here" montage in the final episode, we might see her becoming director eventually, but I don't think it would happen anytime soon. She is Daisy now  Daisy is not ready, I agree. But I barely doubt that she will become Shield's leader soon. |
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Post by NorrinRaddOfZennla on Feb 26, 2017 17:29:50 GMT
I do want Jeffrey mace to have a redemption arc within the framework instead of the way the SHIELD story line basically turned him to a bureaucratic puppet and an empty suit. For me his entire storyline appeared to be more about solidifying the ascension of Daisy Johnson to the position of Director by making the new Director incompetent and impotent as a leader. Well, mission accomplished Director Mace. Daisy will be director but it need not have be at the expense of another character. Just my two-cents. Agreed, Mace was just a place holder for Daisy. Since Aida is removing regrets, I bet Mace will be a real powered person in the framework. I also bet he will sacrifice himself to get everyone else out. This will (finally) clear the path for Daisy to take the throne. As executed Mace was a placeholder for Coulson to take back control of SHIELD so that SHIELD could return to being agenda driven by Coulson's distractions (Raising Daisy Johnson like he is some kind of absentee divorced father and Daisy pushing back to show she is a grown woman not needing his help any more), and not the safety of the people he was sworn to protect. Oh, I forgot SHIELD has no idea just what they are doing or why they are doing it any more. SHIELD doesn't drive the narrative they just play off of whatever shiny keys are placed in front of them and the characters have to react to them. Those darn writers!! When the reins are turned over to Daisy it will be Coulson that will do it or it will go through Coulson so that her ascension has some hint of legitimacy. The same way that it was Fury who bequeathed the keys to Coulson. Coulson never earned his position he was given it. My least favorite aspect of the show is the Cult of personality that surrounds Phil Coulson. The team disliked Mace because he wasn't Coulson and some of the fans of AoS were okay with that.  |
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Post by ayanami on Feb 26, 2017 17:31:15 GMT
I don't think Skye is anywhere near ready to lead Shield and I doubt that's where this show is headed, at least not in the short run. If we get an "where they go from here" montage in the final episode, we might see her becoming director eventually, but I don't think it would happen anytime soon. Daisy is not ready, I agree. But I barely doubt that she will become Shield's leader soon. Nope, not gonna do it. I'm stupidly stubborn like that. |
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Post by koos on Feb 26, 2017 18:00:16 GMT
She is Daisy now Daisy is not ready, I agree. But I barely doubt that she will become Shield's leader soon. Nope, not gonna do it. I'm stupidly stubborn like that. That is so season one-ish. |
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Post by ayanami on Feb 26, 2017 18:04:31 GMT
Nope, not gonna do it. I'm stupidly stubborn like that. That is so season one-ish. And two-ish. My favourite seasons, so I see nothing wrong here. |
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Just my two-cents. 
I'll be spending next weekend with some family I like and trying to avoid any remotely controversial conversations with others that I spend the rest of the year avoiding 