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Post by Jemma Simmons on Apr 19, 2017 13:19:55 GMT
koos got me thinking about the Framework and reality there and I wanted to see what everyone else thinks. Personally, despite saying everything is all 1's and 0's there, I think the people in the Framework are just as real as those in our reality. They have memories and feelings and all the other emotional stuff we associate with being alive. Also, people from our reality can exist there, separate and apart from our real world (see Agnes and Radcliffe, who were still very much alive in the Framework, despite their real-world deaths). What do you all think? Are the Maytrix peeps just as alive as we are? They certainly seem to have self-awareness.
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Post by bigvanray on Apr 19, 2017 13:28:14 GMT
I think it's a more advanced version of Star Trek's holodeck. Very realistic, but not real.
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Post by terminator22 on Apr 19, 2017 13:43:32 GMT
I think it's a more advanced version of Star Trek's holodeck. Very realistic, but not real. Agreed. As much as they seem to be alive, we must remember they will all vanish when the Framework is shut down. |
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Post by koos on Apr 19, 2017 13:46:52 GMT
As I said in the other thread, not realizing you created this one already, all we know about the framework is that it is a computer simulation program. Until we know otherwise, maybe under magical influences or whatnot, I say it is just that: a computer program.
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Post by Jemma Simmons on Apr 19, 2017 15:08:20 GMT
I'm not realy sure yet that for the people inhabiting the Framework, they perceive themselves as just disappearing when people from our reality leave. They strike me more as being like Vic from DS9. I guess we'll have to see what happens to the Framework once our Team decides to leave.
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Post by backroadjunkie on Apr 19, 2017 15:09:01 GMT
The framework is more than a computer simulation. It is the creation of the Darkhold. You don't die in the real world if you die in a computer simulation, but clearly Mace did. |
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Post by koos on Apr 19, 2017 15:25:47 GMT
The framework is more than a computer simulation. It is the creation of the Darkhold. You don't die in the real world if you die in a computer simulation, but clearly Mace did. Sure, but that has nothing to do with the Darkhold. That's because they have their conscious uploaded. And this discussion isn't about them. It about all the characters that are just computer programs running in a simulation. |
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Post by ayanami on Apr 19, 2017 21:30:04 GMT
Nope, not alive, just a bunch of really advanced NPCs.
Also, I would like everyone here to watch Westworld and maybe then we can have this discussion again. Not that that would make answering it any easier.
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Post by Jemma Simmons on Apr 19, 2017 21:30:57 GMT
Nope, not alive, just a bunch of really[i/] advanced NPCs.
Also, I would like everyone here to watch Westworld and maybe than we can have this discussion again. Not that that would make answering it any easier. Westworld is AMAZING. |
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Post by terminator22 on Apr 19, 2017 23:02:14 GMT
I need to watch Westworld sometime.
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Post by FreeKresge on Apr 20, 2017 5:06:25 GMT
Within the context of the Framework, the Framework-only characters are real. From the perspective of Simmons, they are just computer programs.
Within the context of the show, Simmons is real. From our perspective, she is just a fictional character.
Within the context of our world, we are real. Are we really certain that there is not another reality that looks upon us as being just chemical reactions?
In other words, and I forgot who said this, a dream is real as long as it lasts. Can we say any more about life?
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Post by sigasahab on Apr 20, 2017 6:31:00 GMT
I agree with backroadjunkie that it is the Darkhold being in the mix that changes everything and undermines any certainty we can have. Fitz and Radcliffe worked on the basics of the Framework when it was just a computer simulation, but Darkhold-corrupted Aida turned it into a global representation of the real world, something which I'd say is far beyond any normal technological achievement. My impression is that the 'inhabitants' became what they are now at the same time. Whether that makes them real people or not, I dunno, and I suspect that it will be left as an open question.
As a basic rule of thumb, treating them with kindness rather than cruelty would seem to err on the side of caution, if it errs at all.
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Post by sigasahab on Apr 20, 2017 6:33:16 GMT
Within the context of the Framework, the Framework-only characters are real. From the perspective of Simmons, they are just computer programs. Within the context of the show, Simmons is real. From our perspective, she is just a fictional character. Within the context of our world, we are real. Are we really certain that there is not another reality that looks upon us as being just chemical reactions? In other words, and I forgot who said this, a dream is real as long as it lasts. Can we say any more about life? according to Google. Edgar Allan Poe's "All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream" might be appropriate too. |
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Post by beren44 on Apr 20, 2017 9:16:30 GMT
Nope, not alive, just a bunch of really[i/] advanced NPCs.
Also, I would like everyone here to watch Westworld and maybe than we can have this discussion again. Not that that would make answering it any easier. Westworld is AMAZING. What a very interesting discussion this whole thread is! I love it. Although there are two distinctly different points of view emerging, I think everyone has brought up great points of comparison. To sum them up, and add a couple more, 1. The holodeck on TNG. Moriarity in particular. 2. The holodeck on DS9. Vic. 3. While I'm on ST stuff, lets throw in Data, Lor, and Hugh into the mix. Are Borg 'alive'? 4. Westworld. 5. I'll add the very obvious choice, of The Matrix. 6. I think Stepford Wives needs to be included, as well. 7. The cylons from BSG. 8. To stretch the bounds just a bit, I'll throw in HAL from A Space Oddity-2001; And I, Robot, Asimov's classic. Gonna stop there, because this could go on and on. Before any of you go pointing it out, I realize that I have blurred the lines quite a bit between 'a simulated world', and 'artificial intelligence'. Yet, the fundamental underlying question in either case, is 'What is life? That is what everyone seems to be making a statement about, when you get to the bottom line. And for that, I give all of the above a big thumbs up for requiring us to look inside ourselves, and ponder. A sure sign of good sci-fi. Now to my real point. Westworld. I am totally, completely immersed in this show the last couple of days. *pun absolutely intended*. About to start a spoiler free thread on it, join me there! |
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Post by caseyrook AKA Mechelle on Apr 20, 2017 16:05:05 GMT
koos got me thinking about the Framework and reality there and I wanted to see what everyone else thinks. Personally, despite saying everything is all 1's and 0's there, I think the people in the Framework are just as real as those in our reality. They have memories and feelings and all the other emotional stuff we associate with being alive. Also, people from our reality can exist there, separate and apart from our real world (see Agnes and Radcliffe, who were still very much alive in the Framework, despite their real-world deaths). What do you all think? Are the Maytrix peeps just as alive as we are? They certainly seem to have self-awareness. I look at it the way I look at all the various holodeck characters who've become 'alive' and gained sentience in all of ST: It's not so much the NPC's of the FW being 'alive' as it is them 'feeling' alive to the (real world) people in the FW. Take Coulson doing a stupid thing and running off to save Chris, a kid he knows is not real. The kid being real or not real didn't matter, what mattered was Coulson remembering his interactions with Chris and feeling as though Chris was *alive*. It doesn't help that for a good chunk of time Coulson didn't know the world was a simulation. That Coulson, an otherwise intelligent and intellectual person, would go off to save a simulated child speaks to the "realness" of the FW world. Therefore, I personally think it doesn't matter if the FW is reality or not. It just matters how the characters we know are real react to the FW. Especially since, the characters that we know are alive 'On the other side' will presumably leave with memories created in the FW. ...My head hurts... |
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